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Twin Jibs - is it cheating?
- Thread starter pbryant
- Start date
I'm not aware of a NC PHRF Certificate that is "without spinnakers." Boats, such as my Wyliecat 30, obviously don't fly a chute, but we must sail in spinnaker divisions. It's "as if . . . ." There is a list of such boats on the NC PHRF website. There are two Wyliecats that were re-rigged to fly a chute. They took a substantial "hit" on their PHRF rating for doing that, and although only one currently uses that rating, it's only for downwind races. I suggest a little investigation with the NC PHRF folks.
BobJ
Alerion 38 "Surprise!"
Yeah that, but I think he's asking if twins are okay. Absolutely - they are specifically allowed in all SSS races including the SH TransPac. Some hoist two separate sails, and some have "butterfly" twins made with a common luff rope. You can use one or two whisker poles.
In the SHTP twins are kind of an institution. There's at least one thread in the forum archives talking about the finer points of leading the sheets, etc. In 2008 I flew two 155's with twin telescoping poles: a 30' boat with a twin rig almost 36' wide. A spinnaker was still faster, especially after I broke one of the poles.
In the SHTP twins are kind of an institution. There's at least one thread in the forum archives talking about the finer points of leading the sheets, etc. In 2008 I flew two 155's with twin telescoping poles: a 30' boat with a twin rig almost 36' wide. A spinnaker was still faster, especially after I broke one of the poles.
Hi Bob- Were you able to use the autopilot effectively with either the twin jibs or the spinnaker?
Thanks, Todd
solosailor
Member
In stronger wind the autopilot will have an easier time with a reef in the main. The horsepower up front holds the nose down and the boat doesn't try to 180.
Critter
Desert Ratfox
Pbryant, back to Pat Broderick's comment: I snuck a peek at your PHRF certificate, and you have the standard rating for a Pearson Ariel in Nor Cal PHRF: 258. The statement on your cert that you're not carrying spinnakers doesn't earn you a rating credit. I don't think there's any need to take up your case with the PHRF board.
As for twins, in 2010 I carried a spinnaker most of the time during the day and sometimes at night. But I hit my highest speeds on two consecutive windy nights when I was carrying my 130% jib top on one side and a 110% staysail on the other, with the main down for at least one of those nights. It was dead stable, but I wasn't bored - I stayed up most of the night watching the speed on the GPS!
Max
As for twins, in 2010 I carried a spinnaker most of the time during the day and sometimes at night. But I hit my highest speeds on two consecutive windy nights when I was carrying my 130% jib top on one side and a 110% staysail on the other, with the main down for at least one of those nights. It was dead stable, but I wasn't bored - I stayed up most of the night watching the speed on the GPS!
Max
The Smokester
Member
Do you pole them both out? Or just one? Or does it depend on...?
BobJ
Alerion 38 "Surprise!"
Hard to believe this was six years ago - here you go:
http://sfbaysss.org/forum/showthread.php?492-Sail-Seminar-Downwind-Issues&p=2939#post2939
BobJ
Alerion 38 "Surprise!"
Per #9, I rigged a downhaul on the windward pole so it wouldn't sky when I eased the sheet. Soon after I snapped it where the small section exits the large section. Had I rigged the downhaul from the tip of the pole this probably wouldn't have happened. Also, if the boat is rolling enough to dip the windward jib's clew you don't want a downhaul or foreguy on the pole. Purpose-built twins have higher clews so this is unlikely, but I was using a pair of #1 genoas at maximum pole extension.
If I ever do twins again I'll use two solid poles - the telescoping ones sound good in theory but work poorly in practice.
With all that I don't think Smokester's exact question got answered. You don't really need a pole on the leeward twin, especially if you reef the main. But a benefit of twins is being able to gybe without going forward to move the pole. With two poles all you have to do is move the main across and adjust the twins' sheets a bit, which you can do from the cockpit. A solid pole of the correct length would allow you to end-for-end it to the new side, but two poles is even easier.
If I ever do twins again I'll use two solid poles - the telescoping ones sound good in theory but work poorly in practice.
With all that I don't think Smokester's exact question got answered. You don't really need a pole on the leeward twin, especially if you reef the main. But a benefit of twins is being able to gybe without going forward to move the pole. With two poles all you have to do is move the main across and adjust the twins' sheets a bit, which you can do from the cockpit. A solid pole of the correct length would allow you to end-for-end it to the new side, but two poles is even easier.
In a different vein, but still related to sail requirements for the SHTP. This purely academic on my part since: (1) I'm not doing the race this year, and (2) I already have a "heavy weather sail".
Can some one tell me how this apparently new "hoop" got tossed into the requirements list? Back in the mid nineties, I found myself overpowered with a working jib up at the race start. I muddled thru OK, but had a heavy weather headsail built to my own specs for future use. Last use was the 2014 race where I started with it and kept it up for 48 hours or so. So, for my boat, I agree that it's good to have such a sail. But how come one is required after 19 tears without it? What triggered this one??
Can some one tell me how this apparently new "hoop" got tossed into the requirements list? Back in the mid nineties, I found myself overpowered with a working jib up at the race start. I muddled thru OK, but had a heavy weather headsail built to my own specs for future use. Last use was the 2014 race where I started with it and kept it up for 48 hours or so. So, for my boat, I agree that it's good to have such a sail. But how come one is required after 19 tears without it? What triggered this one??
Critter
Desert Ratfox
I poled out the big one. I tried leading the sheet on the smaller one through the outgrabber (q.v.) on the boom, but it didn't seem to help much. The sail pulled the boom inboard more than the boom held the sail out.
I called these "twins" Arnold and Danny.
At night, I ran WF's twins with two poles and the main furled. When running DDW in 18-25 knots TWS, it was easy to jibe and maintain course in the 15-25 degree righthand windshifts of squalls.
Yes, running DDW with twins and two poles you are prone to rolling your guts out. But with a non-planing displacement hull and TWS 18 knots or greater, you can maintain course towards Hanalei without zig-zagging to East Jesus. Jibeing is as easy as briefly turning the tiller.
I did break my one piece, 2.5" diameter pole one dark night in a 30 knot squall. Everything was cozy until it wasn't, and going 10 knots, the boat broached and the windward twin backed. I was off watch and came on deck to find half the pole flagging up the mast and its wires wrapped around the radar dome.
I had three extra poles below, made from old windsurfer masts, and cut to length. I also had a splice kit, pre-drilled, for the solid aluminum pole. My other pole, the 2" diameter extendable one, had through bolts into each section to prevent it from automatically shortening itself. That pole, in it's retracted position, doubled as a reaching strut for the afterguy when spinny reaching with the pole near the headstay.
To answer Jakmang's question, I had two sheets on each twin. The lazy sheet each side doubled as the foreguy, which I usually kept slack unless the pole end seemed too high or needed stabilizing. As previously noted, topping lift(s) on the pole(s) are highly recommended, and the tail should be led initially to the mast so the pole can be one handed from its inboard end, the other hand adjusting the topping lift and ultimately the outboard end pole height.
Wheeee! Not saying any of this would work for a different size or displacement boat....twins are great when you need them. But they take a significant time to rig or unrig. Practice can halve or quarter that time. I found when changing from the spinny to the twins, or vice-versa, I could do it in 5-10 minutes, depending whether it was light or dark, and I thought things through. That can be a loss of 1-2 miles, and why it's worth having a check list, with procedural steps, taped to the back of the cabin.
Yes, running DDW with twins and two poles you are prone to rolling your guts out. But with a non-planing displacement hull and TWS 18 knots or greater, you can maintain course towards Hanalei without zig-zagging to East Jesus. Jibeing is as easy as briefly turning the tiller.
I did break my one piece, 2.5" diameter pole one dark night in a 30 knot squall. Everything was cozy until it wasn't, and going 10 knots, the boat broached and the windward twin backed. I was off watch and came on deck to find half the pole flagging up the mast and its wires wrapped around the radar dome.
I had three extra poles below, made from old windsurfer masts, and cut to length. I also had a splice kit, pre-drilled, for the solid aluminum pole. My other pole, the 2" diameter extendable one, had through bolts into each section to prevent it from automatically shortening itself. That pole, in it's retracted position, doubled as a reaching strut for the afterguy when spinny reaching with the pole near the headstay.
To answer Jakmang's question, I had two sheets on each twin. The lazy sheet each side doubled as the foreguy, which I usually kept slack unless the pole end seemed too high or needed stabilizing. As previously noted, topping lift(s) on the pole(s) are highly recommended, and the tail should be led initially to the mast so the pole can be one handed from its inboard end, the other hand adjusting the topping lift and ultimately the outboard end pole height.
Wheeee! Not saying any of this would work for a different size or displacement boat....twins are great when you need them. But they take a significant time to rig or unrig. Practice can halve or quarter that time. I found when changing from the spinny to the twins, or vice-versa, I could do it in 5-10 minutes, depending whether it was light or dark, and I thought things through. That can be a loss of 1-2 miles, and why it's worth having a check list, with procedural steps, taped to the back of the cabin.
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I use 2 135% headsails sewed to a common luff tape to fit my Gemini headfoil. I pole out the windward sail and trim the leeward sail as it sees the wind being funneled to it as if it were on a beam reach. No rolling. Seen from above, it would sort of look like a chute which is attached to the headstay in the middle. Works for me. My most recent version has been 1 1/2 oz nylon. Easier to handle and stow. Main reefed or not, appropriate to wind strength, but not furled. Legal per SHTP rules. Very useful on nites where squalls appear imminent...usually the night after I've been "squalled" with a chute up!
Hi Ken,
With only one pole, and no roller furling, how did you jibe in a squall to maintain closest jibe towards Hanalei? Sometimes those squalls and temporary windshifts seemed to last half the night. ;-)
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The Smokester
Member
Thank you all for sharing your experience. I have many questions...
First up is, while I rigged for two poles last summer, I have yet to use them both. My closest experience to twins is wing-on-wing with the headsail poled out but this experience has been limited to short day runs in the bay so no big-wave rolling and no sneaky wind shifts. In this case I use a topping lift at the end of the pole, clip the pole into a loop of dyneena at the clew of the partially unfurled (so I can reach it) jib in the shadow of the main, and then jibe the main.
I haven't been using any guys with this but I also have never accidentally jibed. Is there a gotcha here?
First up is, while I rigged for two poles last summer, I have yet to use them both. My closest experience to twins is wing-on-wing with the headsail poled out but this experience has been limited to short day runs in the bay so no big-wave rolling and no sneaky wind shifts. In this case I use a topping lift at the end of the pole, clip the pole into a loop of dyneena at the clew of the partially unfurled (so I can reach it) jib in the shadow of the main, and then jibe the main.
I haven't been using any guys with this but I also have never accidentally jibed. Is there a gotcha here?
In your situation with roller furling, the simplicity and your familiarity of winging out the jib with one pole sounds like it will work just fine. To jibe the jib, roll it up and end for end the pole to the other side sheet. Or dip the pole end and clip it back into the dyneema loop. But that entails a trip to the bow.
The problem with twins is the complexity of the rigging. Twins with two poles are best set when they can be left up for an extended length of time.
Accidentally jibeing the main is to be avoided if possible. Several things can be done to mitigate 1) rig a preventer to the rail with a "fuse" that will break if the main goes aback on an accidental jibe. 2) Reef the main if it's blowing hard enough where an accidental jibe could damage the boom or gooseneck. This is usually about 20 knots TWS. 3) Drop the main altogether, and run with just the jib wung out. This assumes you can pull your main down when running in breeze. 4) handsteer, and don't run DDW. Keep the Apparent Wind on your ear rather than the back of your neck.
Of course barring reason not to, the fastest way downwind is usually to sail the closest jibe to the mark. If neither jibe is closer, good time for a nap or sandwich.