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2013 Three Bridge Fiasco Registration Open
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BobJ
Alerion 38 "Surprise!"
No changes (yet) that I know of. The board will be meeting later this month to finalize the details.
I have a couple ideas about ways to better enforce the restricted areas and will float those out to the board, but the best thing is for all racers to be willing to file a protest. I know this is unpalatable for some (especially in the SSS) but that's how these things are supposed to be kept in check. It starts with knowing how to lodge a protest, notify the offending boat, etc.
If it has to happen, I'd rather keep it to a professional resolution in "the room" than a free-for-all at the awards meeting.
More to come.
I have a couple ideas about ways to better enforce the restricted areas and will float those out to the board, but the best thing is for all racers to be willing to file a protest. I know this is unpalatable for some (especially in the SSS) but that's how these things are supposed to be kept in check. It starts with knowing how to lodge a protest, notify the offending boat, etc.
If it has to happen, I'd rather keep it to a professional resolution in "the room" than a free-for-all at the awards meeting.
More to come.
Ursus
New member
Protests by other boats will not work.
Excerpt of a post after last years 3BF (and award ceremony...):
http://www.sfbaysss.net/showthread....o-Preliminary-Results-Updates&p=5226#post5226
"What I think the SSS should do:
Excerpt of a post after last years 3BF (and award ceremony...):
http://www.sfbaysss.net/showthread....o-Preliminary-Results-Updates&p=5226#post5226
"What I think the SSS should do:
- Add graphics of the restricted areas within the SI (SSS is working on this; great!)
- Show the restricted areas in the online registration and force an acknowledgment (similar to the safety stuff)
- Add a paragraph to 3 (Disqualification without hearing) in the SI. “3c: Violates any restricted area”
then spread the rumor that land observers, photoboats and dedicated vessels will be out to enforce 3c.
BobJ
Alerion 38 "Surprise!"
I'm curious to know why you think protests will not work. They do in other sailboat races.
If it's because skippers refuse to file them, I want to work to take away that stigma and inform skippers how to file them properly/timely. If we don't do this our races will become free-for-alls.
I may in fact bring my boat down from Vallejo and "patrol" the Long Wharf restricted area, but this shouldn't be necessary and it sounds like a pretty crummy way to spend the day.
If it's because skippers refuse to file them, I want to work to take away that stigma and inform skippers how to file them properly/timely. If we don't do this our races will become free-for-alls.
I may in fact bring my boat down from Vallejo and "patrol" the Long Wharf restricted area, but this shouldn't be necessary and it sounds like a pretty crummy way to spend the day.
Ursus
New member
Sorry for being too brief.
Boat to boat protests should be unchanged, but 3BF history teaches us that they don't solve the problem of the restricted areas.
With the current SI, the RC can already 'disqualify without hearing' yachts that: a) Impede the passage of some vessels b) Finish in the dark without proper light
Why not simply add: c) Violate a restricted area
If that change was well publicized, it would act as a pretty strong deterrent.
If there are still significant violations, a DSQ without hearing causes a lot less hassle and bad blood than a boat to boat protest.
Boat to boat protests should be unchanged, but 3BF history teaches us that they don't solve the problem of the restricted areas.
With the current SI, the RC can already 'disqualify without hearing' yachts that: a) Impede the passage of some vessels b) Finish in the dark without proper light
Why not simply add: c) Violate a restricted area
If that change was well publicized, it would act as a pretty strong deterrent.
If there are still significant violations, a DSQ without hearing causes a lot less hassle and bad blood than a boat to boat protest.
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Ursus
New member
I am pretty sure that changing the SI and spreading the rumor that the RC, or someone deputized by the RC, may be watching will do the trick.
Once the mass restricted area violations end, individual violations will be pretty rare (some SSS races have no problems with RA at all, even though they pass the same areas as in the 3BF...).
If that does not work in 2013, send someone out in 2014 and flick a few prominent violators, it's not a huge effort.
Again, my proposal is not suitable to handle rare, individual violations, but 3BF has a problem of another magnitude...
BobJ
Alerion 38 "Surprise!"
Respectfully, I think it's the opposite. 3BF history reveals a lack of protests over restricted areas, which has probably caused the abuse seen in recent years.
Because the R/C lacks first-hand evidence of a RA violation - see my question in post #8 above. With (a) they have a call from the ship or CG (see the SSI's) and with (b) they have a first-hand observation, usually at the finish line. To disqualify without a hearing you really need first-hand evidence.
I think these are the root issues - the hassle of filing a protest and the fear of "bad blood" for doing so. Neither is a sufficient reason for transferring the skippers' responsibilities under the RRS to the R/C. The other skippers are in a position to see a violation and notify the offending boat. They just need to be willing to do it. If the offending boat doesn't retire, the recourse is to file a protest. This is not my idea - those are the rules under which we race. If it causes "bad blood" then the offending skipper should consider golf or something.
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Jan Brewer
New member
Hi,
As Race Deck Chair and PRO for the 3BF this next year, unless someone would like to step up and relieve me of the PRO position, I was gonna chime in here with a few words and luckily Bob J. has offered up some wonderful responses and questions. Of course, my first question was asked and then addressed again with the "evidence" issue covered. Thank you and maybe golf needs to be suggested at the skippers' meeting as an alternative. Bad blood? Isn't that reserved for the offending boats and the protest committee? Not boat to boat, right? Bottom line, it is a pain in the butt to file a protest; however, lots can be done before the hearing to resolve the issue so . . . case in point last year two protests were filed within a very short time after the finish and those were resolved with 2 phone calls with the offending boats dropping out so . . . great discussion, thanks.
As Race Deck Chair and PRO for the 3BF this next year, unless someone would like to step up and relieve me of the PRO position, I was gonna chime in here with a few words and luckily Bob J. has offered up some wonderful responses and questions. Of course, my first question was asked and then addressed again with the "evidence" issue covered. Thank you and maybe golf needs to be suggested at the skippers' meeting as an alternative. Bad blood? Isn't that reserved for the offending boats and the protest committee? Not boat to boat, right? Bottom line, it is a pain in the butt to file a protest; however, lots can be done before the hearing to resolve the issue so . . . case in point last year two protests were filed within a very short time after the finish and those were resolved with 2 phone calls with the offending boats dropping out so . . . great discussion, thanks.
Philpott
Cal 2-27 Dura Mater
"This is not my idea - those are the rules under which we race. If it causes "bad blood" then the offending skipper should consider golf or something." Bob J.
Perhaps a bit of time at the Skippers meeting can be spent on the anatomy of a protest: different ways to notify an offending boat, the timely filing of a protest and ways to protest (via radio, raising a red flag, in writing within 48 hours of the end of the race, etc). Maybe we can encourage skippers to keep radios turned on during the race, too.
Perhaps a bit of time at the Skippers meeting can be spent on the anatomy of a protest: different ways to notify an offending boat, the timely filing of a protest and ways to protest (via radio, raising a red flag, in writing within 48 hours of the end of the race, etc). Maybe we can encourage skippers to keep radios turned on during the race, too.
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BobJ
Alerion 38 "Surprise!"
Okay, we had our meeting and worked out a simplified Restricted Area Enforcement Protocol:
View attachment 275
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View attachment 275
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BobJ
Alerion 38 "Surprise!"
Here you go - page 2:
http://www.sfbaysss.org/2013/PDF/2013 Three Bridge Fiasco Additional Sailing Instructions.pdf
.
http://www.sfbaysss.org/2013/PDF/2013 Three Bridge Fiasco Additional Sailing Instructions.pdf
.
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Philpott
Cal 2-27 Dura Mater
I suggested this last year but Max declined. See how a change in leadership just cuts through all the red tape?
View attachment 275
.[/QUOTE]
View attachment 275
.[/QUOTE]
Ursus
New member
I haven't been in a protest room in a long time, so please correct me if I am wrong.
To protest another yacht for area violations at 3BF a participant would need to:
- Be prepared to show up at a protest hearing at an undisclosed location and time
- While racing, identify the other yacht, which is probably far away (in the restricted area) and may not have a unique sail number
- While racing, find a witness which has observed and memorized the same violation and is prepared to attend a protest hearing at an undisclosed location and time
- Notify RC within an hour of finishing (easy)
- Submit the written protest within 48h (again easy)
No wonder there are no protests for RA violations @ 3BF...
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BobJ
Alerion 38 "Surprise!"
Potentially yes, most or all of that. But using your point numbers:
1. Last year a couple of these violations got resolved quickly without a hearing, but the protests were made. The location and time for a hearing should be published however.
2. Look at this a bit differently. You see a boat gaining an advantage (current perhaps) by going well inside the restricted area. You probably know who it is or it wouldn't be bugging you. If the boat is so far away you can't see who it is, you aren't the one who should be protesting them - someone closer should be doing it.
3. I think all boats monitoring the race channel (69) and you making a radio announcement of your protest largely solves this. That may not be sufficient announcement to the offending boat under the RRS (does anyone know?) but it should alert a couple of witnesses of the protest, should that prove necessary.
On your last (un-numbered) point, I recognize your boat presents unique challenges for following the on-the-water portion of these steps. (Where do you keep an unfurled protest flag?) But for most of us, especially in this race, we have ample opportunity to locate our protest flag, press it a bit, tie it to the backstay, look at it awhile . . . )
I think the plan is to distribute a protest "cheat sheet" at the skippers' meeting so we're all reminded how to do this. I suggested it also have blank spaces to insert sail numbers! This should provide some additional deterrent but again - (1) be willing to file a protest, (2) the R/C can't do it for you, and (3) this is part of sailboat racing and does not need to be a big onerous deal.
1. Last year a couple of these violations got resolved quickly without a hearing, but the protests were made. The location and time for a hearing should be published however.
2. Look at this a bit differently. You see a boat gaining an advantage (current perhaps) by going well inside the restricted area. You probably know who it is or it wouldn't be bugging you. If the boat is so far away you can't see who it is, you aren't the one who should be protesting them - someone closer should be doing it.
3. I think all boats monitoring the race channel (69) and you making a radio announcement of your protest largely solves this. That may not be sufficient announcement to the offending boat under the RRS (does anyone know?) but it should alert a couple of witnesses of the protest, should that prove necessary.
On your last (un-numbered) point, I recognize your boat presents unique challenges for following the on-the-water portion of these steps. (Where do you keep an unfurled protest flag?) But for most of us, especially in this race, we have ample opportunity to locate our protest flag, press it a bit, tie it to the backstay, look at it awhile . . . )
I think the plan is to distribute a protest "cheat sheet" at the skippers' meeting so we're all reminded how to do this. I suggested it also have blank spaces to insert sail numbers! This should provide some additional deterrent but again - (1) be willing to file a protest, (2) the R/C can't do it for you, and (3) this is part of sailboat racing and does not need to be a big onerous deal.
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Just as a reminder, Three Bridge Fiasco registration is currently open and up to 292 the last time I checked. There are still a couple days to get registered. The deadline is tomorrow after the skipper's meeting. Make sure to get your payment for single race entry or membership in by the deadline.
In response to the thread regarding protests, I am keeping my red flag handy this year and expect to see some boats inside the bay bridge restricted areas and inside the long warf restricted area. I doubt it will ever get to a formal protest room but do expect that some regular SSS people that didn't bother before will be protesting this year.
Hopefully, the trophy meeting will be for trophies this year and we can leave the protests to be dealt with by the race committee after the race.
Stay safe everybody and I'll see you out there on Saturday.
Matt
In response to the thread regarding protests, I am keeping my red flag handy this year and expect to see some boats inside the bay bridge restricted areas and inside the long warf restricted area. I doubt it will ever get to a formal protest room but do expect that some regular SSS people that didn't bother before will be protesting this year.
Hopefully, the trophy meeting will be for trophies this year and we can leave the protests to be dealt with by the race committee after the race.
Stay safe everybody and I'll see you out there on Saturday.
Matt