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AIS during the TP. Experiences?
- Thread starter Foolish
- Start date
ronnie simpson
Peterson 34 "QUIVER"
It is required by the rules unless you have a real radar. I was personally far less than impressed. I used it during my sea-trials and qualifier, and some of the delivery home, but I don't even think I used it during my Transpac at all. There are so many vessels out there that don't even transmit that it's not even funny. It gives you a false sense of security. It seemed like when I did use it in a place with lots of traffic, (like SF Bay, or just offshore near the shipping lanes), it picked up a majority of freight ships, but nowhere near all of them. This is strictly my opinion.
But it is less of a pain in the ass than installing an actual radar, which requires it own mast off the stern, a backstay mount, or actually mounting it on the mast. So, having said that, AIS is probably the lesser of two evils. I will get one in 2012, but only because it's required.
This is solely my own personal opinion.
Sorry for the negativity in my tone.
On a related subject, does anyone know who's doing race committee in 2012 and if there is any way we could persuade them to drop the AIS/ Radar requirement?
ronnie
But it is less of a pain in the ass than installing an actual radar, which requires it own mast off the stern, a backstay mount, or actually mounting it on the mast. So, having said that, AIS is probably the lesser of two evils. I will get one in 2012, but only because it's required.
This is solely my own personal opinion.
Sorry for the negativity in my tone.
On a related subject, does anyone know who's doing race committee in 2012 and if there is any way we could persuade them to drop the AIS/ Radar requirement?
ronnie
tiger beetle
N/M 45 Tiger Beetle
I do not know if the 2012 RC has been put together at this point.
One question RC is likely to ask regarding AIS and/or radar is how many likely competitors already have one on board? If most everybody does then it's not an onerous requirement, if nobody does then it's a potential point of discussion.
From my experience using both, AIS works well offshore and alerts you to shipping traffic beyond the range of the radar, including localized stuff the radar does not see due to squalls (I keep the radar tuned to see squall rain, even though the tuning can mask a target beyond the rain). The radar works well for picking up things that aren't running AIS - other small boats and warships, for example. I really like running both, the AIS continuously and the radar on a 5 minute guard zone mode - the radar wakes up every 5 minutes, scans for a minute, and if nothing is found it goes back to sleep.
The significant difference between the two (other than AIS being passive and radar being active), is that AIS tells you the target's range, speed, bearing, and the software I have calculate CPA, so I can determine quickly if I'll be passing close by. I do not have a MARPA feature for the radar so all I see on the radar display is a spot and I have to work out visually if we're going to be close. As a result I keep the radar range set to between 6 and 8 miles such that when a target appears I can go topside and visually see which direction the target is headed and then work out if there's going to be a close crossing.
- rob/beetle
Critter
Desert Ratfox
As I stated in Bob's "what worked, what didn't" thread, I was happy with the AIS. I never sighted a ship that my receiver didn't pick up first.
In the LongPac the year before, I did see a ship that apparently wasn't transmitting. Based on that and Ronnie's experience, maybe I shouldn't have been so sanguine. But I still think it's well worth the minor expense.
Max
In the LongPac the year before, I did see a ship that apparently wasn't transmitting. Based on that and Ronnie's experience, maybe I shouldn't have been so sanguine. But I still think it's well worth the minor expense.
Max
I loved my AIS! In fact, it worked too well. I used a splitter which shared the whip on the masthead with the VHF. This configuration gave me targets 80 miles out! I would spot them, want to talk, but our CPA was three hours. On the ocean, don't expect to make a visual contact until about 8 miles, VHF works about 30-40 miles. The best part about AIS is what Rob said, the name, track, SOG, and CPA of the vessel. The only part I would change would to not use my laptop to run the AIS through nobletec. The computer took too much energy, I would rather have a separate AIS unit that can run all the time with low power draw.
For about $400 (or cheaper), I can't see why the RC would not require this important safety tool on the ocean.
PS: I left the gate worried about ships, about half way there I couldn't wait to see a ship. Don't be afraid of ships, it's a big ocean...really, really big.
For about $400 (or cheaper), I can't see why the RC would not require this important safety tool on the ocean.
PS: I left the gate worried about ships, about half way there I couldn't wait to see a ship. Don't be afraid of ships, it's a big ocean...really, really big.
Oceanslogic
New member
Ais=good
I loved my AIS! And it seemed that my little 25 foot Folkboat was a freighter magnet during the SHTP...compared with others in the fleet...we saw a ton of shipping and my little standalone Nasa Marine AIS unit was spot on. I bought mine from a UK outfit and the system worked great...drew very little BTU's (I would typically have my AIS on standby all night long)...a false sense of security or not--it helped me sleep better at night
Should AIS still be a requirement for the SHTP 2012? Absolutely!
Adam
s/v Blue Moon
www.oceanslogic.com
I loved my AIS! And it seemed that my little 25 foot Folkboat was a freighter magnet during the SHTP...compared with others in the fleet...we saw a ton of shipping and my little standalone Nasa Marine AIS unit was spot on. I bought mine from a UK outfit and the system worked great...drew very little BTU's (I would typically have my AIS on standby all night long)...a false sense of security or not--it helped me sleep better at night
Should AIS still be a requirement for the SHTP 2012? Absolutely!Adam
s/v Blue Moon
www.oceanslogic.com
Last edited:
BobJ
Alerion 38 "Surprise!"
As Rob M suggested, we took a poll before adding the rule:
http://www.sfbaysss.net/showthread.php?t=304
NASA's stand-alone unit is still about $280 from the U.K.:
NASA AIS "Radar"
I recently installed the splitter I bought from Jak. Next weekend Ragtime! returns from the backwaters of Benicia so we'll see what pops up on the AIS.
http://www.sfbaysss.net/showthread.php?t=304
NASA's stand-alone unit is still about $280 from the U.K.:
NASA AIS "Radar"
I recently installed the splitter I bought from Jak. Next weekend Ragtime! returns from the backwaters of Benicia so we'll see what pops up on the AIS.
JakeinDenver
New member
Is anyone using the new Standard Horizon GX 2100 VHF/AIS?
I'm looking at AIS units and was planning on the NASA AIS until I found the Standard Horizon GX 2100 VHF/AIS radio. Uses the same antenna, automatic DSC calling to AIS targets, remote mic with AIS screen, I would guess lower power consumption if you leave your VHF on 24/7... Seems like a pretty good idea.
Does anyone have thoughts one way or the other on this instead of the NASA AIS?
also, like the NASA, you need to hook up a GPS to it. Are most folks using fixed or portable GPS connections for their AIS GPS positioning?
Thanks,
jake
I'm looking at AIS units and was planning on the NASA AIS until I found the Standard Horizon GX 2100 VHF/AIS radio. Uses the same antenna, automatic DSC calling to AIS targets, remote mic with AIS screen, I would guess lower power consumption if you leave your VHF on 24/7... Seems like a pretty good idea.
Does anyone have thoughts one way or the other on this instead of the NASA AIS?
also, like the NASA, you need to hook up a GPS to it. Are most folks using fixed or portable GPS connections for their AIS GPS positioning?
Thanks,
jake
tiger beetle
N/M 45 Tiger Beetle
Standard GX2100 - looks good
The GX2100 looks like a nice bit of kit - I had a Standard VHF radio on my prior boat and it worked well. The price is definitely right (<$350) and it's most likely a good radio.
Currently I'm using a fixed Furuno GP-31 to supply GPS data via NMEA to the SR-162 AIS receiver and the laptop running Coastal Explorer. One thing that may be missing from the GX2100 display is the CPA; the brochure mentions a CPA Alarm, which is not quite the same as showing you the CPA distance & time.
But for the power consumption and price, the GX2100 looks like a very good value.
- rob/beetle
The GX2100 looks like a nice bit of kit - I had a Standard VHF radio on my prior boat and it worked well. The price is definitely right (<$350) and it's most likely a good radio.
Currently I'm using a fixed Furuno GP-31 to supply GPS data via NMEA to the SR-162 AIS receiver and the laptop running Coastal Explorer. One thing that may be missing from the GX2100 display is the CPA; the brochure mentions a CPA Alarm, which is not quite the same as showing you the CPA distance & time.
But for the power consumption and price, the GX2100 looks like a very good value.
- rob/beetle
BobJ
Alerion 38 "Surprise!"
I like the perspective provided by the larger screen on the NASA stand-alone unit. It doesn't give you CPA either so seeing the trailing lines (both length=speed and relative bearing) helps to plan your crossing. I've not used the GX2100 but its AIS screen is tiny.
Also, I suppose it could be like the old "integrated" stereos (I've used this analogy before) - if something goes wrong with one part of the radio I wouldn't want to lose my AIS, and vice-versa.
Also, I suppose it could be like the old "integrated" stereos (I've used this analogy before) - if something goes wrong with one part of the radio I wouldn't want to lose my AIS, and vice-versa.
Culebra
New member
Essential
I think AIS is an essential part of the safety gear. In fact I think all entries, whether or not equipped with radar, should be required to carry a transponder type 'B' unit and keep it turned on for the entire race, once beyond the ocean's demarcation line (inside the bay, forget it). Energy consumption is tiny. There are a ton of options now. Cost is really not bad, and it is still dropping.
I think one of the things that made AIS so valuable for me was the ability to configure alert criteria and see a graphic display. I used a dedicated display by Watchmate because I didn't want to leave the PC on. It consumes practically nothing, has a totally configurable set of alerts, and the display stays off until a target fits the criteria you configure.
Adam said that Blue Moon was a ship magnet. I encountered many also. But even if just one ship in 2200 miles happens to find your boat while you're sleeping, wouldn't you want to know about it, and better yet, wouldn't you want the ship to "see" you? You can forget about them seeing your (required) radar reflector until it's too late, if at all. On both legs I encountered ships whose CPAs stayed around 0 nm consistently, until one of us changed course. When well offshore I would set the "CPA" alert to 2 nm. That would result in an alert sounding over an hour before the TCA (time to closest approach), which gave me plenty of time to track the ship and decide if a course change or hailing them was necessary. I also set a "Range" alert that had priority over the CPA alert. I wanted to know every time a ship was inside of 6 nm from my position whether or not it was on a collision course. I frequently hailed ships (by name)... I enjoyed the conversation even if there was no danger of collision, and when there was, they invariably agreed to change course so I didn't have to. Oh... and what peace of mind I had when I saw them changing course real time.
Paul/Culebra
I think AIS is an essential part of the safety gear. In fact I think all entries, whether or not equipped with radar, should be required to carry a transponder type 'B' unit and keep it turned on for the entire race, once beyond the ocean's demarcation line (inside the bay, forget it). Energy consumption is tiny. There are a ton of options now. Cost is really not bad, and it is still dropping.
I think one of the things that made AIS so valuable for me was the ability to configure alert criteria and see a graphic display. I used a dedicated display by Watchmate because I didn't want to leave the PC on. It consumes practically nothing, has a totally configurable set of alerts, and the display stays off until a target fits the criteria you configure.
Adam said that Blue Moon was a ship magnet. I encountered many also. But even if just one ship in 2200 miles happens to find your boat while you're sleeping, wouldn't you want to know about it, and better yet, wouldn't you want the ship to "see" you? You can forget about them seeing your (required) radar reflector until it's too late, if at all. On both legs I encountered ships whose CPAs stayed around 0 nm consistently, until one of us changed course. When well offshore I would set the "CPA" alert to 2 nm. That would result in an alert sounding over an hour before the TCA (time to closest approach), which gave me plenty of time to track the ship and decide if a course change or hailing them was necessary. I also set a "Range" alert that had priority over the CPA alert. I wanted to know every time a ship was inside of 6 nm from my position whether or not it was on a collision course. I frequently hailed ships (by name)... I enjoyed the conversation even if there was no danger of collision, and when there was, they invariably agreed to change course so I didn't have to. Oh... and what peace of mind I had when I saw them changing course real time.
Paul/Culebra
tiger beetle
N/M 45 Tiger Beetle
I've been watching the AIS Class B transponders and they are still rather expensive as safety gear goes - the unit I'm most interested in is the Comnav Marine X2 black box unit at $800 (which includes its own GPS antenna - you supply the VHF aerial). Based on a friend's usage, it draws about 1 Amp - which is a fair bit of power on a small boat.
Note that the Comnav Class A transponder is $2700 - way outside my league.
Do you have a particular piece of equipment you're looking at?
I'm not convinced that a Class B transponder is essential.
A receiving unit, given the relatively low price and power consumption, does not seem onerous - but adding the cost & power consumption of a transponder to a skipper's entry probably is. I see the value in having an AIS receiver, in particular one that uses a dedicated display other than a laptop computer - but is a receiver an essential piece of gear? If most entries already have one then I'd say so.
- rob/beetle
Note that the Comnav Class A transponder is $2700 - way outside my league.
Do you have a particular piece of equipment you're looking at?
I'm not convinced that a Class B transponder is essential.
A receiving unit, given the relatively low price and power consumption, does not seem onerous - but adding the cost & power consumption of a transponder to a skipper's entry probably is. I see the value in having an AIS receiver, in particular one that uses a dedicated display other than a laptop computer - but is a receiver an essential piece of gear? If most entries already have one then I'd say so.
- rob/beetle
Critter
Desert Ratfox
Jake, I have a Navman 5500 (low end, fixed mount, grayscale display plotter) providing the GPS position to the NASA AIS Radar.
I'm pretty much with Bob: CPA is interesting information, but the little tadpole tails on the NASA display are adequate to decide if there's a problem.
My VHF uses the masthead antenna, while the AIS uses an antenna on the stern rail. So I'm not going to get AIS hits from ships 40 miles away, but who cares.
Max
cafemontaigne
Olson 30 "Idefix"
I think an AIS RX is a no-brainer. It's relatively cheap and consumes very little power, while reducing the risk of collision and increasing situational awareness.
My experience with AIS on the SHTP and return was kind of hit-or-miss. For the race, the software I was using kept giving me false alarms (GPS dropout due to a spinnaker pole and water sitting on the sails stacked on deck over the nav table). I ended up turning off the alarm, and looking at the screen before taking naps. I picked up Culebra and Kestrel nearby. Around day 3 I couldn't have cared less that I didn't have AIS, and slept for hours on end. One day about 800 miles out I saw a cargo ship, but that was it. After I lost sight of Warrior's Wish on the first night, the next boat I saw was a fishing boat 50 miles from Hanalei. Neither of these were transmitting AIS.
For the return trip I fixed the software problem, and we saw significantly more ship traffic (did we see more because we had AIS and 4 eyeballs instead of 2 half-opened ones? probably.). AIS came in handy for one ship that was insisting on running us over until I called them by name. They then said "yeah, we see you and have you on radar. clear astern." I also did some maneuvering to try and stay away from ships, but I don't know if that really helped. It also gave me a false sense of security as we surfed down the Strait of Juan de Fuca at 10kts in zero visibility with Peter glued to the chartplotter. I kept thinking "there's no one else crazy enough to be sailing out here in a foggy gale at 2am on a thursday". 5 minutes later we pass by a sailboat motoring upwind. Not that I would give up my AIS in the fog...
On a little ULDB at speed, running into a log, a whale, a container, a refrigerator, or a sailboat has about the same outcome as running into a container ship. A large part of singlehanded ocean sailing is mitigating the risk of losing the boat to a collision, but you're not going to be able to engineer your way to zero risk. If you want to sleep well on an SHTP at some point you have to come to terms with the fact that there are a lot of things to run into out there, many of which you will not see.
That being said, next time I do something like this I'll probably have an AIS transponder.
Adrian
Idefix
My experience with AIS on the SHTP and return was kind of hit-or-miss. For the race, the software I was using kept giving me false alarms (GPS dropout due to a spinnaker pole and water sitting on the sails stacked on deck over the nav table). I ended up turning off the alarm, and looking at the screen before taking naps. I picked up Culebra and Kestrel nearby. Around day 3 I couldn't have cared less that I didn't have AIS, and slept for hours on end. One day about 800 miles out I saw a cargo ship, but that was it. After I lost sight of Warrior's Wish on the first night, the next boat I saw was a fishing boat 50 miles from Hanalei. Neither of these were transmitting AIS.
For the return trip I fixed the software problem, and we saw significantly more ship traffic (did we see more because we had AIS and 4 eyeballs instead of 2 half-opened ones? probably.). AIS came in handy for one ship that was insisting on running us over until I called them by name. They then said "yeah, we see you and have you on radar. clear astern." I also did some maneuvering to try and stay away from ships, but I don't know if that really helped. It also gave me a false sense of security as we surfed down the Strait of Juan de Fuca at 10kts in zero visibility with Peter glued to the chartplotter. I kept thinking "there's no one else crazy enough to be sailing out here in a foggy gale at 2am on a thursday". 5 minutes later we pass by a sailboat motoring upwind. Not that I would give up my AIS in the fog...
On a little ULDB at speed, running into a log, a whale, a container, a refrigerator, or a sailboat has about the same outcome as running into a container ship. A large part of singlehanded ocean sailing is mitigating the risk of losing the boat to a collision, but you're not going to be able to engineer your way to zero risk. If you want to sleep well on an SHTP at some point you have to come to terms with the fact that there are a lot of things to run into out there, many of which you will not see.
That being said, next time I do something like this I'll probably have an AIS transponder.
Adrian
Idefix
BobJ
Alerion 38 "Surprise!"
To put it in perspective, at eight miles all you'll see of a ship is a trail of smoke on the horizon. As Max suggests, if there's a ship 40 miles away I don't really need to know about it.
I installed the splitter mostly because I wanted to clean up the back of the boat (Rule Four). Also the price was right.
I installed the splitter mostly because I wanted to clean up the back of the boat (Rule Four). Also the price was right.
cafemontaigne
Olson 30 "Idefix"
I hate to revive a dead thread, but I hadn't got around to uploading this photo until today, and I think it makes a good case for AIS on a small sailboat.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/adriancjohnson/5140308470/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/adriancjohnson/5140308470/
JakeinDenver
New member
Wow Adrian... what an incredible shot. It would be funny if getting run over wasn't such a real threat. How long before you "saw" the boat did you know something was there from your AIS?
Oceanslogic
New member
Adrian..
That pic is worthy of a "I heart AIS" sticker...I really don't like FOG. I bet you could hear the prop chugging through the water though...Yikes! Great pic!
That pic is worthy of a "I heart AIS" sticker...I really don't like FOG.
I bet you could hear the prop chugging through the water though...Yikes! Great pic!
cafemontaigne
Olson 30 "Idefix"
Thanks,
It was taken a little ways outside the entrance to Juan de Fuca. We spent 2 or 3 days bobbing around in the fog with wind oscillating between 0 and 25 knots, and the traffic was pretty continuous. I imagine SF bay gets to be the same way...
We were usually picking up traffic around 20 miles out. They probably all had us on radar, but AIS allowed us to do our part by actively trying to stay out of their way.
A little while later the wind was back to zero and we got passed by various sorts of traffic that did not show up on AIS...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/adriancjohnson/5143552225/
Adrian
Idefix
It was taken a little ways outside the entrance to Juan de Fuca. We spent 2 or 3 days bobbing around in the fog with wind oscillating between 0 and 25 knots, and the traffic was pretty continuous. I imagine SF bay gets to be the same way...
We were usually picking up traffic around 20 miles out. They probably all had us on radar, but AIS allowed us to do our part by actively trying to stay out of their way.
A little while later the wind was back to zero and we got passed by various sorts of traffic that did not show up on AIS...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/adriancjohnson/5143552225/
Adrian
Idefix