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Autopilots

W

Wylieguy

New member
I'm considering the 2011 LongPac singlehanded and want to upgrade from my Raymarine ST 1000+ (become back up). Tiller steering, Wyliecat 30, 5500#. I want "steer to wind" along with the standard compass heading.
Here are my thoughts on possible choices - I'd welcome feedback.
1. The Raymarine SmartPilot X-5 (around $1100). Sea-Talk capable, but how to hook it into my Tick-Tack wind instrument?
2. Resurrecting my old Autohelm 2000. There's a flat spot on the motor, so a replacement ram is necessary. Has a wind vane attachment that works. No Sea-Talk capability.
3. Another modest-priced unit?
Thanks, Pat Broderick "NANCY"
 
Pat, first thanks for your service to YRA over the past several years (and the SSS before that).

You need to confirm that your Tac-Tic wind instrument can output NMEA (data strings). If not, no wind data is available to an autopilot.

The easiest and cheapest option might be the larger Simrad self-contained unit - my recollection is it is the only abovedecks pilot that will accept NMEA data.

If you end up with an X-5 or other Raymarine unit, it will speak "Seatalk" (not NMEA) so you may need to have a mux (multiplexer) to do the translating.

My system is all Raymarine (Seatalk) so I'll let someone else pick up with the details.
 
I have an ST2000+ tiller pilot on my fine yacht, and i'm pretty sure it accepts NMEA as well as "Sea Talk". It has a 6-pin connector that, to my knowledge, is 12V +/-, Sea Talk and NMEA. I will be out of town eating turkey for a few days, but will look at the owner's manual when I return. Maybe someone else has experience?
 
Pat,

I've also been thinking about the 2011 LongPac singlehanded, but I have some other kinds of equipment issues to overcome.

I have an ST2000+, but no wind instruments. The ST2000+ does accept NEMA data. I've successfully networked it to my Garmin GPS, although I've never yet had a need to have the autopilot steer to a waypoint.

If anyone's interested I have for sale a (Simrad) Navico TP5500 Tiller Pilot (for boats to 14,000 lbs) with HP5000 "Programmer" wired remote. Includes 6" pushrod extension and Marinco watertight o-ring seal plug & receptacle. It will accept a wind vane (not included). Pilot works fine; programmer/remote (not required for pilot) acting up. I believe the programmer has a wiring fault where the wire enters the programmer. $250 or offer.

Tom
Dazzler
 
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Hi Pat -

TackTick claims to produce an NMEA output, presumably the NMEA output contains AWA and TWA. Does what you have produce those two values via NMEA?


What does a suitable autopilot accept as AWA or TWA input? Depends upon the autopilot and your budget for the autopilot upgrade. What's your budget for this?

One thing to consider for an installation is what Bruce Schwab did on Rumbleseat - he used a typical small push/pull tiller pilot on his boat but mounted the ram belowdecks in a fore-and-aft orientation beneath the starboard cockpit seat (to protect the ram) and connected an outboard motor push/pull cable to the end of that ram; the outboard push/pull cable was run through a gradual 90 degree bend and led through the cockpit footwell wall via a gland in the wall of the cockpit and to the tilller. Turned out this installation worked very well as the pilot was completely protected from water and being sat upon, and the friction in the outboard push/pull cable was minimal.

Personally I prefer large, expensive, power-hungry below-decks pilots connected directly to the rudder stock (not the steering quadrant) - and those are $4-7k depending on what you buy - adding wind-steering functionality is extra. If you're budget isn't there, then you might consider Bruce's install approach and see if that setup would fit into Nancy.

And I don't know what the smaller above-deck tiller pilots will accept in the way of steer-to information.

- rob
 
X-5

Hi Pat,

I've been using an X-5 Tillerpilot for 18 months. I have a Raymarine setup, and even so I've had trouble with the sail to wind function. Half the time I get and error message, and the other half of the time the Apparent wind reading goes a little haywire and decides to start reading about 30 degrees to starboard. Even when working, it's only useful when going upwind. Downwind & even reaching the AP will go all over the place so you'll be better off with a compass course.

With your Tacktick interface, Raymarine sells a $160 box that converts NMEA-SeaTalk and vice-versa. http://www.raymarine.com/ProductDetail.aspx?SITE=1&SECTION=2&PAGE=714&PRODUCT=2976

I bought one and tried pushing Seatalk data out to a laptop and NMEA data in and never got it working right. On my boat, simple and robust if far preferable to complexity.

By the way, I'm already on my second tiller arm due to water ingress. make sure the seals are tight. I just built a canvas cover for it also to keep water off of it. The X-5 computer & control unit seem just fine. The fluxgate seems like it gets inconsistent at large angles of heel. Or maybe it's the 10 foot seas I keep bashing into.

Garmin just introduced a unit that you might take a look at. I don't know the costs. NKE & B&G make great autopilots, but they cost 5x Raymarine. Us amateurs down in SoCal pretty much all use X-5s.

Hope this helps.
 
Yup, a canvas cover is a necessity to give robustness a chance. Make sure that your cover also protects the ram from collecting any salt water spray that would get retracted into the brain box. AP Not Like. Let me know if you need one -- let me cover your asset --

Synthia/Eyrie
 
Wyliecat AutoPilot Redux

Thanks everyone. I'd like an underdeck system, but the Wyliecat tiller system uses a solid tube thru the hull to the cockpit sole. I'd have to cut the tube, install a gland of some sort, support the bottom section of the tube with braces, etc. Probably too much engineering, so an above-deck tiller device is in order - cost-wise and design-wise I think.
Anyone else have experience with the X-5 steering to wind (or not as the case may be????).
Anyone have a ram(s) that would work with an old Autohelm 2000 unit? That Autohelm steered wonderfully to apparent wind over and over.
The interface with the TackTick wind instrument would also take a TackTick "brain" that costs a bloody bundle.
I'll consider Bruce's "rubber band" method - thanks Tigerman.
I'll be "weatherizing" the ram/tiller unit for sure Synthia (my 1000+ already sports a coat).
Pat Broderick "NANCY"
 
Pat, I don't have personal experience with X-5 steering to AWA or TWA. (Only NKE and ST2000+). I know a lot of people who have used X-5 on a wind angle, and seemed quite happy with it. Even steering with a kite up.

I think X-5 is arguably the standard for pilot's in it's price range. Someone correct me if i'm wrong.

ronnie
 
Don't mix systems

I recommend against mixing systems using NMEA. I did it with my wind instrument and Raymarine autohelm and I was not at all happy with the result. It seems that the autohelm computer just does not translate the NMEA very well. (I have heard this from others as well.) I found that the autohelm could not handle running with the spinnaker up. I had many round-ups and broaches.

I have been much happier since I switched to a completely Raymarine system. I'm now running with much greater confidence. In fact I've run at 165 degrees in 20 knots of wind, and enjoyed my dinner in the hatch while the autohelm does all the work. This is how it's supposed to work, righ!

Andy
 
When using the Raymarine AP to steer to wind angle, are you using apparent wind angle or true wind angle?

If using true wind angle, from where does the speed information come?

GPS to NMEA to Course Computer?

Raymarine speed transducer to Seatalk to Course Computer? Is there another source for drift/current if the speed is coming from a speed transducer?

Does that cause the difficulty with "mixing" NMEA and Seatalk?

Thank you,
Todd Olsen
 
I was only using apparent wind angle, so boat speed was not involved. It was just taking the wind direction and speed from the wind instrument via NMEA
 
For what it's worth, I have an X-5 and ST-60+ wind and speed instruments, all interfaced on SeaTalk. It worked pretty well steering to AWA before the transpac, although the constant beeping when the wind shifts >15 degrees drove me absolutely nuts.

The contacts for the wind instrument got pretty heavily corroded and I lost reliable wind data on the first or second day of the SHTP. As a result, I steered to compass heading for 5000 miles, and not once did I miss the wind steering (well, OK, maybe once or twice). Even after I cleaned off the contacts and got wind data back, I didn't bother with wind steering, even while close reaching on the trip home. I prefer to point the boat where I want to go and trim the sails accordingly than let the boat wander all over the ocean.

Adrian
Idefix
 
tiger beetle said:
One thing to consider for an installation is what Bruce Schwab did on Rumbleseat - he used a typical small push/pull tiller pilot on his boat but mounted the ram belowdecks in a fore-and-aft orientation beneath the starboard cockpit seat (to protect the ram) and connected an outboard motor push/pull cable to the end of that ram; the outboard push/pull cable was run through a gradual 90 degree bend and led through the cockpit footwell wall via a gland in the wall of the cockpit and to the tilller. Turned out this installation worked very well as the pilot was completely protected from water and being sat upon, and the friction in the outboard push/pull cable was minimal.
Click to expand...

Hi Rob - I've been thinking about how to do this on RAGTIME! and may undertake it as a Winter project. I've looked at Teleflex and Morse cabling. It is designed for a "throw" of approx 4", not the 15-18" necessary for our use. In our application, a long length of unsupported cable would be exposed in the cockpit when the cable was at full extension (a full starboard turn if the cable was coming from the starboard side, for example).

I'll take some measurements this weekend to see how much room I have under the cockpit but if you have any ideas about solving this exposed cable problem, that would be grand.

If Bruce happens to see this, maybe he can answer it directly.
 
Raymarine X-5 Autopilot/Price

Okay, it looks like the Raymarine X-5 tiller autopilot is the ticket. Sailnet has it for $946 + shipping. Anyone know of a cheaper price?
I think I'll install it on the Port side of the cockpit since the cockpit locker is on Starboard. That way it can keep on working and I'll still have access to the locker. That's where the Honda generator sat on the way to Hawaii, and the lid need to be open for that purpose. It'll sit there for the LongPac as well.
Thanks, Pat B.
 
Below deck tiller drive

I've seen a few setups with an ST4000 type ram drive below deck with wire leads up to the cockpit.

If I were to do one like that now I would use Harken through-deck turning blocks and use spectra lead that could be lashed tight on one end as the line creeps.
 
@Rob - Thanks, I'll give him a try.

@Pat - That's the best price I've seen. I think you're making the right move.

@Greg - Any local boats with this setup? You're more mechanical than me, any thoughts about dealing with the exposed Morse cable? I've thought about blocks and spectra but it couldn't be made as watertight and I'd have fewer options for placement of the ram.
 
BobJ said:
Hi Rob - I've been thinking about how to do this on RAGTIME! and may undertake it as a Winter project. I've looked at Teleflex and Morse cabling. It is designed for a "throw" of approx 4", not the 15-18" necessary for our use. In our application, a long length of unsupported cable would be exposed in the cockpit when the cable was at full extension (a full starboard turn if the cable was coming from the starboard side, for example).

I'll take some measurements this weekend to see how much room I have under the cockpit but if you have any ideas about solving this exposed cable problem, that would be grand.

If Bruce happens to see this, maybe he can answer it directly.
Click to expand...

Email sent...but here are a couple notes: The ram mounted belowdecks was athwartships (as usual) but was connected to a custom aluminum lever to reduce the travel to the 3-4" range that the push/pull cable could handle. Then on deck the push/pull was connected closer to the rudder shaft so that the tiller travel was what it should be. Worked like a charm. You do have to make a bracket to hold the push/pull cable housing (must be strong).

B
 
George McKay used a below-decks pilot and cable setup on Cookie Jar (Moore 24). I could let George describe it, but here I am.

I believe the autopilot was athwartships. He attached the whole thing to a traveler rack and car, uncder the cockpit, and the cables were attached to the car. Cables exited the deck and were covered by simple rubber flaps which kept out "most" of the water.

You could probably set up something pretty trick using stainless steel bicycle brake cables, and those nifty teflon-lined cable housings, as long as the run wasn't too long.
 
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