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communication and navigation equipment

J

jimb522

New member
Hello,
I have been maintaining an interest in the SHTP since 2008, and and for various reasons (mostly work obligations since I am self employed in a small business) havent been able to put it together.
I was interested in the 2014 race and had spent a bucketfull of money rebuilding and modifying a 36 foot tri. Unfortunately, I sank it in 15 feet of water in August, 2013, and that was the end of that.
We salvaged the boat and now I am putting it back together. Obviously, every single electrical component has to be replaced new. I am entering the recently announced Pensacola to Havana race starting October 31, 2015, a 550 mile sprint. We will be sailing in 2 months and have two months to de-bug and sea-trial it, prior to that race. I will singlehand the boat back to Louisiana, about 650 miles, to see if I think its safe, (or I am perhaps) for entering the SHTP.
Here is the question.
What simple nav and comm equipment setups will do the job. I know I am installing an NKE autopilot and other NKE systems (wind, speed) I want AIS, and I am leaning toward InavX in the IPAS, with a couple of handheld GPS backups. Also Delorme tracking. I will only have solar power, and perhaps a Honda 2000 eu genset BOat will be full LED lights equipped.
Any suggestions, critiques, or comments with regard to specific equipment, or installation will be appreciated.
Jim
 
My boat has solar power (max possible 9 amps when the sun orientation is good). This is nowhere near enuf to satisfy my autopilot draw, esp when things get a little rough. I have an inboard engine and "feed" the batteries with it as necessary. I also carry a Honda AND a 30 amp batt charger to plug into it (the direct output of the 12V plug on the Honda is only 8 amps). Sounds like a nice new auto bilge pump would give you needed peace of mind.....Enjoy the race!
 
If you're installing NKE instruments and autopilot you have a lot more money than most of us! What are you using for a drive unit? It makes a huge difference in draw.

I used GPSNavX on a MacBook for the 2006 race, MacENC on the same MacBook in 2008 and iNavX on an iPad (and iPhone) last year. Overlaying weather charts (downloaded via satphone) was easy. I used an Iridium phone and Iridium's AxcessPoint last year but I think their GoPhone is the current equivalent (the wireless hub is built in).

If you want to chat with the other skippers an SSB is also nice, but if you get too chatty it will use up your available electrons.

I have 2x43 watt Kyoceras and a 45 watt flexible panel on the dodger - about the same max output as Harrier's. If we'd had more sun during the race this would have been enough, but we didn't. I burned maybe five gallons of fuel using the Yanmar as a battery charger. YMMV.
 
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Harrier and BobJ
I appreciate your responses. The history of this boat is one I got too deep into, and stupidly spent about $100K rebuilding a boat over a two year period, that I bought for $2000.00. It was not premeditated, but something that just kind of kept sucking me into it like brer rabbit and the tarbaby. "stupidly" becuase it was like building a mansion in the ghetto. I was in the debugging it stage when I sank it, when a hatch cover in the starboard ama came loose and it down-flooded very quickly in a six mile race at almost the half-way point. There are a set of new bilge pumps for the ama's that were going to go into the amas, but my impatience to go sailing and see how fast it would go in a little short race on a gorgious day, in Lake Pontchartrain, bit me in the ass. Actually, the bilge pumps would have probably been inadequate, but a bilge alarm would have solved that problem. Harrier was rather right on with his observation.
The NKE stuff is because I know its the best, and the most important equipment, other then B&G, which is even more expensive. My advisor, who has raced the SHTP, Ryan Finn, thinks it overkill for that race, and a waste of money. Its certainly not going to leave much for anything else, hence my post on the forum. But in reading the forum, autopilot failure is clearlyseems to be the most vexing problem of the many problems that arise, and the rest of the electronics are relatively cheap by comparison. The fact that the boat is a trimaran with some moderate speed potential means to me that the autopilot has to have more capability to steer and react quickly. If I was racing my J35, I probably would not use NKE. My quess is that all those folks from Europe sailing the various open classes and mini's must know something. THe boat has a 8hp Tohatsu outboard, so there is no realistic battery charging there. That leaves the Honda and Solar. Fortunately I had not installed the solar panels yet when I sank it, so That is money that I dont have to spend again. I had purchased an ICOM SSB too, that was not installed too. I gather that weather faxes are the best thing for those of us that GRIB files intimidate.
THe NKE is not purchased yet as we are still trying to figure out what we need. I know the hydralic drive burns more battery, but is stronger and quicker. I am having to build another rudder as one of the bugs was a totally inadequate trudder that would not steer the boat becasue the Raymarine GP 4000 wouldnt react fast enough, and when it did, the boat was already out of control and couldnt be brought back. This is a function of another factor, which is a 12 foot longer mast, a 4 foot longer J measurement, achieved with a bowsprit, and
 
sorry, I hit send accidentally:
It was supposed to say and some big ass sails. We are going to take it down the Gulf coast for an extensaive shakedown and try to optimize the boat and sail handling procedures, and see what works. I dont really think that I have hotrodded the boat too much for it to handle by todays standards. It is too heavy and could never compete with a Farrier 31, which is blindingly fast by comparison, although not as comfortable to spend time in the cabin on.
In two months we will have the boat sailing, and have two more months to fine-tune it. If it isnt safe, then I have a flashy day sailor and will not go offshore, as my wife doesnt care to handle my debt load. Being on the boat when it flipped has made her somewhat cantankerous.
Jim
 
jimb522 said:
Harrier and BobJ
I appreciate your responses. The history of this boat is one I got too deep into, and stupidly spent about $100K rebuilding a boat over a two year period, that I bought for $2000.00.
Click to expand...

Wow, now I'm kinda feeling better about all the upgrades I did on my boat...
 
I will be happy to attach a picture if someone will tell me how.
Pensacola Yacht Club, Penscola Florida, is holding a race from Pensacola to Hemingway Marina about 9 miles West of Havana. I organized one of the last races there in April 1999 and the Feds shut racing down for years after that up until this year, when Obama reopened diplomatic restrictions and eased enforcement of the trading with the enemy act.
Pensacola YC has done it right and gotten a general license and each boat can get a license to participate. Instructions are on the PYC website. The race will start on Oct. 31, 2015 and go direct to the finish line at Heminway marina. 500 nautical miles on a course of about 148 degrees. The pilot charts for November at first glance look like about a 75-80 percent chance of a NE wind, or a port beam reach going and starboard beam reach coming back. I hope to stop at the Dry Tortugas (70 miles West of Key West on my sail back, as I have never been. Wind that time of year should be 10 to 18, and overall conditions fair. Temps very moderate, but not blistering hot and humid like now.
.Havana is beat up, poor, and very interesting. I found the cubans loved us (or american dollars more likely) and I had fun wandering around there for a week. Prices are going to go up and there will be a tourist boom as tons of capital is going to be poured into Cuba for development of tourism. Thats my general view of the future.
I do believe it is safe, and they really want us there.
You will have fun if you come, and the water is beautiful. The race is oriented toward racer/cruisers, with the emphasis more on cruisers. BUt, Pensacola Yacht Club knows how to run a race, and those more interested in racing will have great ride too.
Jim
Jim
 
I am curious if you have purchased the NKE system. I went way over the top on my J/88 and did. I think you will find if you look at B&G it comes in quite a few flavors and they offer similar systems for similar dollars. I love my system.....but the interface is not a clean as the B&G; and support is further away and in French ;-).
The pilot drives the boat beautifully in waves with the kite up (Waves being 4-6 foot coastal Coastal CA and SF Bay)..so far.
The reason I purchased the system is the remote....it offers a "fail safe" mode that puts the boat head to wind if separated from the system by 50 feet or so. I have not tested it yet...it gives me some peace of mind. Realistically if you fell of the boat with the kite up, even if the boat went head to wind it would probably drift aways faster than one could swim.....but I try not to think about that.

Also, they Raymarine Products offer a lot of bang for the buck and don't forget to look at Pelagic Autopilot!!!!!
 
Great to see all your posts Chris - I think you've got the bug.

I've been throwing good money after bad (well hopefully not) and updating my Raymarine stuff. Their new displays are SeaTalkNG (compatible with NMEA 2000) and are bright and very readable. Last year (for Pacific Cup) I bought a new Garmin 7" chartplotter that's visible in the cockpit via a swing-arm mount just inside the companionway. It has a feed from the AIS (in my VHF radio) so the AIS targets are in both places. With its AIS alarm the Garmin also takes the place of my old stand-alone AIS that's now aboard Stink Eye.

Anyway, I'm regretting the Garmin chartplotter purchase - I should have bought a Raymarine MFD instead. I can't update the firmware in any of my new Raymarine components without a Raymarine MFD - I have to ship them off to Ray's service facility. (Whereas I can update the Garmin stuff via computer and Garmin cable.)

If any of you have a Raymarine MFD (with a card slot) and are willing to have me come aboard with my Ray components and a data card, I'll be able to update everything.
 
CRC1965 said:
I am curious if you have purchased the NKE system. I went way over the top on my J/88 and did. I think you will find if you look at B&G it comes in quite a few flavors and they offer similar systems for similar dollars. I love my system.....but the interface is not a clean as the B&G; and support is further away and in French ;-).
The pilot drives the boat beautifully in waves with the kite up (Waves being 4-6 foot coastal Coastal CA and SF Bay)..so far.
The reason I purchased the system is the remote....it offers a "fail safe" mode that puts the boat head to wind if separated from the system by 50 feet or so. I have not tested it yet...it gives me some peace of mind. Realistically if you fell of the boat with the kite up, even if the boat went head to wind it would probably drift aways faster than one could swim.....but I try not to think about that.

Also, they Raymarine Products offer a lot of bang for the buck and don't forget to look at Pelagic Autopilot!!!!!
Click to expand...


I have gone so far as to send off a request to Euro Trading to spec out a NKE system for me, and have not received a reply as of yet. I told them that I wanted a system that would steer to true wind, and give me the information to create polars. I would be very interested in hearing what specific parts of the NKE system you got on your J88, and what it is capable of . Did you use an NKE hydralic drive, or somethiing else. What is the current draw? I would also be curious as to its cost, and what, if anything you would want to add, or subtract, and why. So far, you are the only person I have heard from that has actually put one on their boat and used it. Any other advice would be very much appreciated. Thank you.
Jim Bates
 
Jim, there's also a local J/105 owner who installed an NKE system awhile back and seems happy with it. He's done some SSS races and may watch this board. Doug Bailey who owns AKULA. Doug, are you lurking?
 
BobJ,
Thanks, I really want to get all the info I can, as I have about two months to put it together and then two months to sail and use it. Incidentally, Since I broke the mast at the mid-point sleeve when I flipped it, we are in the process of putting it back together, and the young man, Ryan Finn, who has been doing the work for me, is doing a beautiful job. He found some "sheave-less" exit boxes at colligo, ao there are only two sheaves (the two main halyards) in a six halyard mast. Also, the only metal is the mast tube itself, and the headstay, and the wire headstay with a harken furler on itt, plus the diamond stays. The headstay is attached to a dynex dux loop syspended between two "cheeky tangs" from colligo. It may be that I am just showing my age, and that everyone already knows about all that stuff. But is is new to me for sure.
I have decided that I am going to ask B&G for a spec sheet for my mission just to keep NKE honest.
Jim
 
Bob Congdon is the NKE guy....San Diego based. Super nice, super helpful! My boat is light 5,000 lbs...so went with a morse cable connected to tiller (transom hung rudders have all sorts of challenges). Current draw is in the 3-4 amps range (so far.....beam reaching 25-30 knots, heavy seas). But again my boat is light and tiller is pretty well balanced. Similar draw with kit up and gain up so pilot making a lot of changes. True wind steering is easy with the system, toggle compass to true to apparent. I have two multi function displays..because they are a key part of the autopilot system..they do some of the processing.....also two incase one is damaged...though two almost necessary to avoid having to toggle constantly. It outputs a NMEA data stream wirelessly so you can capture all the data you want and more.......Part of the system includes there high end compass, and the usual speed/depth transducers, autopilot brain/cpu, GPS, I am sure I am forgetting something. Again I am happy......but you really should get a quote for B&G to compare....they are not that different. Cost of installation is about 50% of the electronics cost unless you plan to do it yourself........keep in mind that would be a very large project and installation issues are the most common source of autopilot failures......so I have read ;-)

IF i had a bigger boat I would go B&G and interface with one of their beautiful chartplotters at a NAV station...overlay radar etc.......

I link to a microsoft surface pro wirelessly.....works nicely (small footprint and current demand for a small boat)
I also have a ipad as a second device also wireless link both display AIS information.

FINALLY.........get a Vesper Watchmate. AIS transponder, GPS, wifii hub etc. The company is from down under they are incredibly responsive, the product works great out of the box. If you are going to spend NKE/B&G buck this is a no brainer safety issue.
 
Chris,
My boat is 6500 pounds, plus or minus. I just got a Farrier 33 rudder that we are replacing my homemake NACA 12 foil with. It is twice the size and depth. Did you go with a NKE hydralic drive? If so, which one. I am thinking about their "32" model. Your amp draw is going to create a power challenge, but I half expected that. I really really appreciate the equipment suggestions. Perhaps you could email me bob congdon's email. Unless your wife hasnt been told what it cost to get where you are, I am curious as to how much I need to prepare to spend.
Thanks,
Jim
 
Jim, say Hi to Ryan for me. He raced the SHTP in 2004 with a J/90, a little carbon rocketship that has similar "accommodations" to a J/80. He got some bad routing advice (like we did in last year's PacCup) and didn't do too well, but he's a world class sailor. Ryan also gave me some help remotely before my SHTP's. I'm sure the class of 2004 would like to see him come out and give it another go.
 
I will tell him hello for you Monday when he comes back to work on the boat. I met him prior to his 2004 SHTP effort, and again when he was putting together his mini prior to his European sailing campaign. Finally he is the owner of a custom made quarter-ton designed by Lonnie Stoner for me in about 1978 which was originally named "coonass", with appropriate graphics. I did not cover myself with glory with that boat, but Ryan is kicking light-air butt in the local races. I have looked at his MaxSea routing program and it is pretty impressive. He just used it to deliver a his father's J160 to its new owner through the canal from florida, and up to San Diego. Incidentally, he will be the one who will be doing the auto pilot installation.
Jim
 
Ooops. AMP draw is less. Typical 2.5 amps seldom 3. 4 amps is total draw with every electronic item on the boat running (VHF, AIS Transponder, Surface Pro Tablet, Charging some electronics, a few LED lights). The picture attached shows the basic installation. Under the tiller is a second stub tiller (this connects to the morse cable...which then routes through the hull to the electric motor mounted safely below. I have quick disconnect for the autopilot that leads to the end of the tiller. The black plastic block mounted on the deck puts the morse cable at the same level as the stub tiller. It would have been nice to be lower and avoid this....BUT...had an access panel I wanted to keep available. Tiller Pilot.jpg
 
Chris,
I would not have thought of a stub tiller. My set-up is a bit more complex, as my boat has a 4 foot hull extention with an oil derrick looking affair on it to hold solar panels. The transom mounted tiller is in back of the original transom, so a linkage had to be made to connect the two. but the push-pull cable is a neat idea. The forum has already given me a couple of ideas that I may be able to use. What a great resource.

BobJ,
I have a Petrson 1/2 tonner that won the North American CHampionship in the mid-70's when sailed by O.J. Young, in Gulfport, Mississippi. It was named "Mouth" with a big shark's mouth on the front. Everyone knew it was named after O.J. however as he was quite a screamer. The boat is sitting on a trailer, and needs a total restoration for racing. I will offer to pay for the parts and let Ryan bring it to the SHTP, if he has the energy to put in the labor to do it. I dont have the time. I bought it thinking that it might be a good Bermuda 1-2 boat, with water ballast, but I have been too afflicted by the multihull bug, and only have time and mental energy to devote to the multihull at this time.

Can someone tell me the basic layout of a wireless system on a boat? Is that a separate item that all the other gear connects to, for purposes of transmitting data, or is it contained within the various pieces of electronic gear such as the versper, ipad, nke etc. It is the connectivity between the various items that has me confused.
Jim
 
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