Emergency rudder / Monitor / E-RUD

[GBR3068]

DavidH posted the Seminar #2 details here https://www.sfbaysss.org/forum/showthread.php?2802-Seminars-SHTP-2023&p=32209#post32209

This post is about emergency rudders and, to narrow things down so we don't explode, the question is wrt Monitors. I suppose this post should belong in Q&A for Seminar #1 where we discussed safety but it came up in questions during Seminar #2.

The question in Seminar #2 was about emergency rudder options and Hydrovane vs Monitor. As I understand things, Hydrovane is itself an emergency rudder. Monitor has something called an E-RUD (I think used to be M-RUD) https://www.scanmarinternational.com/m-rud and the "library" leads to the "old" M-RUD manual here https://www.scanmarinternational.com/_files/ugd/d14bae_5b38a132ba1c4d75b6f0928a13d749e3.pdf

There is a Twitter post from Sept 2020 from Scanmar announcing the new E-RUD https://twitter.com/scanmari?lang=en so it could be there hasn't been much discussion of the E-RUD wrt SHTP

Here is the longest thread here I could find on emergency rudders that includes discussion of the "M-RUD" https://www.sfbaysss.org/forum/showthread.php?1449-Emergency-Rudders-Show-and-Tell This dates to 2015-2017 so I don't think E-RUD was relevant then

Sorry to go through all that but here's the point: A discussion in Seminar #2 ended with a question from someone considering which windvane to use: "Dont you lose self-steering if you use a Monitor emergency rudder" and the entire audience went silent. I dont know enough to debate this, but I understood the answer to be "No, you got several ways to steer including the Pelagic"

I have a Monitor, three Pelagics, one ram, an E-RUD, two drogues, a pole to use with drogues, a CPT, an emergency tiller and am getting a new rudder with steering gear reinforcements at Svendsens right now. I'm planning on testing. Somewhere, probably here on the SSS Forum but I cant find it, someone said "You dont have emergency steering until you go out to the lightship, disable your steering, install your emergency system and sail around the Farallon Islands" That seems like good advice. Meanwhile, what does the crowd here say about Monitors and E-RUDs?

 

[BobJ]

Monitor = good. M-Rud (attached to Monitor) or E-Rud (separate kit) = not so much. It's in the Archives somewhere, from when we had the first e-steering seminar and race.
.

 

[GBR3068]

Thanks (once again)!! I dont want to divert my own thread about Monitor + E-RUD but here's the results of searching SSS that I did including what I think you are referencing which could be "Emergency Rudders Show-and-Tell" and "2018 E Rudder "Race"". But what I'm really interested in is the current Monitor emergency rudder + autopilot because hand-steering an emergency rudder for days on end does not sound fun. I think I got to tap Brian for his thinking based on "Monitor sleeve and getting your autopilot to drive your e-rudder Brian Boschma" below.

(Tangential) Monitor M-RUD and E-RUD references
===============================
https://www.sfbaysss.org/forum/showthread.php?16-Acceptable-Emergency-Rudders&highlight=Monitor Acceptable Emergency Rudders

https://www.sfbaysss.org/forum/showthread.php?1815-Emergency-Rudder-Ideas&highlight=Monitor Emergency Rudder Ideas

https://www.sfbaysss.org/forum/show...windvane-autopilot-question&highlight=Monitor Newbie: windvane / autopilot question

https://www.sfbaysss.org/forum/show...avorites-dynamics-boat-type&highlight=Monitor Autopilots, favorites, dynamics, boat type ?

https://www.sfbaysss.org/forum/show...dom-What-happened-out-there&highlight=Monitor Sea Wisdom: What happened out there?

https://www.sfbaysss.org/forum/showthread.php?1449-Emergency-Rudders-Show-and-Tell&highlight=Monitor Emergency Rudders Show-and-Tell
BobJ >> I watched Scanmar's old video (I don't know if it's still on their site) of Jonathan Livingston assembling and installing an M-Rud on Punk Dolphin FROM THE DOCK. After watching it, I'd want that sucker to be fully assembled and ready to install before I headed out. I'd also put a spare halyard on it (and another one on me) before I tried to hang over the transom to install it.

That said, about two-thirds of recent SHTP'ers have used the stand-alone or Monitor-attached M-Rud as their e-steering solution.

Philpott>> Well, that is a shame. Look what you missed: Great turnout on Saturday. After show and tell five boats deployed their emergency rudders: Lightspeed, Bandicoot, Southernaire, Ragtime! and Iniscaw with varying degrees of success. The wind outside Richmond Yacht Club was approximately 12-14 knots, and every boat had crew. Here are the photos, I leave it to their skippers to offer up problems to be solved.

https://www.sfbaysss.org/forum/show...al-Emergency-Rudder-Seminar&highlight=Monitor Virtual Emergency Rudder Seminar
Scanmar Monitor sleeve and getting your autopilot to drive your e-rudder Brian Boschma. 10 minutes ( he volunteered!...but not confirmed yet)
Speaker: Scanmar Marine SOS rudder and Monitor attachment .. 10 minutes (not confirmed yet)

https://www.sfbaysss.org/forum/showthread.php?2085-2018-E-Rudder-quot-Race-quot&highlight=Monitor 2018 E Rudder "Race"
Philpott >> All three boats motored to the start. John Woodworth raised his sails and made deployment of his ERudder look easy. He has a monitor windvane and the ERudder that can be purchased separately. You can see Owl sailing smoothly along, only to get caught in the flood as she approaches the mark. Did she ever circle the mark? Dunno. What does John say?

https://www.sfbaysss.org/forum/showthread.php?200-What-worked-what-didn-t&highlight=Monitor What worked, what didn't

More general emergency rudder references
===========================

http://www.well.com/user/pk/PCrudder-04.htm
https://people.well.com/user/pk/PCrudder.html

http://www.bluemoment.com/emergencyrudders.html
A far more accurate test of the system is to sail out to the lightship, drop all sail and install the rudder while bouncing around in the swell and wind, then head out and loop the Farallone islands. By the time you get back to the lightship you'll know a) how to install the thing, b) how to trim the sails to use it, and c) whether nor not it REALLY works.

http://pineapplesails.com/articles/e_rudder/index.htm

 

[BobJ]

That's quite the harvest from the Archives - there's more out there than I remembered. I was aboard John's Owl when we tested his M-Rud. My recollection is that he had it built larger than stock - and it worked. (To answer Philpott's question, we hit the mark and I'm not sure we actually rounded it - there was very little wind and lots of current.) Anyway, Scanmar may have further improved it so yes, you need the current status.

In the GGR, Tapio had to abandon ship when his Asteria got holed aft and quickly sank. The speculation is that his Hydrovane's rudder hit something, broke off and took part of the transom with it. Hydrovane gives you a stand-alone rudder but it's quite exposed back there.

Surprise! (Alerion Express 38) has a cassette e-rudder built by Greg Nelsen (Hi-Modulus). Greg also built (J/92) Ragtime!'s e-rudder back in 2005. Both e-rudders can be steered with a Pelagic cockpit drive. On Surprise! I put a longer cord on the drive so I can move it aft. Let's see if I can post photos...

View attachment 7997

 

[northwester]

Last summer we hit a whale on the way back from Hawaii and had to use my Monitor e-rudder for almost 1,000 miles. I bought it used a few years ago for $1k.

It is well built and it worked very well. Even though it is smaller that my original rudder it is also further aft so it turned the boat well and kept it going straight. It was not hooked up to the autopilot because my backstay is in the center of the transom, so no forward facing tiller.

Another drawback is that it isn't especially easy to install at sea especially single-handed. It can be done with practice and fortunately PACCUP required us to practice.

Honestly I never expected to use it but there you go.

 

[GBR3068]

Northwester: Crikey! That is very valuable information (for me anyway…). Thanks !! What size/type of boat? Are you Express 37? I have a Cal 34 with fin & semi-balanced spade, I think about your weight though at 10,000 lb. I may be asking you for some advice wrt Monitor + e-rudder. Not many have your experience with the e-rudder. I have written to Suzy, Mike and Brian at Scanmar. Did you tell them about your experience?

 

[GBR3068]

I just found this reference that might be useful to others in addition to the ones above: https://outthegate.podbean.com/e/mike-scheck-scanmar-getting-into-the-business-of-sailing-ep-66/ This is a podcast with Mike Scheck and a discussion on the Scanmar e-rudder starts at about 37:00 and runs through about 42:00 (he goes on to talk about the Pelagic at about 47:00). I can't find much else on Monitor + e-rudder than I posted already, so if anyone has more information, LMK !

 

[northwester]

Yes I sent them a note. My E-37 weighs about 11k. I only have the e-rudder.

On my previous boat I had a Monitor and it was terrific in everything except light downwind. If there's a way to convert it to an e-rudder that would be a nice setup.

 

[JimQuanci]

This is a way too complicated thread... to hopefully keep it simple...
Step 1 If your current rudder has stainless haft and is over 20 years old, replace it.
Step 2 If you haven't dropped and inspected your rudder in the last 5 years, do so now.
Now the chance you will ever need to use an emergency rudder has been dramatically reduced.

Now simplest and cheapest e-rudder to deploy and use is a drogue. Sure will take some practice (connecting it at midship). And you'll be making 3 knots most of the time, but you'll get where you are going. Newport-Bermuda has "many" entrants using a drogue. Drogue's inherently "self steer" (no autopilot required) and are robust. Takes near a mile to change tacks/jibes with a drogue on my Cal 40 but it does work and would get me "close enough" to port to get a tow the last few miles near shore. Hey RKJ used a drogue in the southern ocean as did Jeanne Socrates.

Now if you want to be able to lose your rudder and still race... a cassette based e-rudder on the stern is the way to go (as Bob has). But forget about home brew plywood rudders or anything less then "robust" stern mounts. If you broke your main rudder, conditions are likely "trying" (ie near impossible to attach unless its a cassette mount and it will break most all "out of the box" pintles/gudgeons if not tear them off the stern). If you decide to go the "less then robust" plywood and pintle/gudgeon rudder route... do yourself a favor and bring the drogue as backup.

I have zero experience with Monitors and other self steering "vane" driven systems... but its clear they all can "break"... so you'll want some sort of backup (wind vane breaks off, water blade breaks off when it catches a fishing net or whale, various components break, etc). Why the GGR folks all have 3+ sets of self steering gear/mechanisms.

The first 2 days reaching to Hawaii can be so so tough on rudders... as can a week of sailing down wind. The SHTP is from a boat wear and tear perspective 10 years of local sailing condensed into two weeks (that's 20 years of wear and tear if you sail home too).

 

[JimQuanci]

Oh...
Testing an e-rudder out by the Farallones is "nice"... but really doesn't prove its suitable for Hawaii...
Numerous e-rudders used in the PacCup worked "okay" for a day or two... but then blew-up. Several hundreds miles downwind in a decent sea state is tough on most any e-rudder (back to cassette, very strong blade, and robust attachment if you really want to keep sailing at a good clip).

For chuckles...
The overall winner of the PacCup in the early 90s was a Newport 30 under e-rudder (well built cassette mount). They used the e-rudder for several days... and still won overall. Now there were some very sore arms...

And one last drogue pitch...
Sometimes rudders break off "clean" but more often then not they don't... one can find oneself unable to use an e-rudder because of what's "left" of the original rudder (stub of a blade, shaft breaks in the tube so the rudder is still there but flopping around).

 

[GBR3068]

Thanks Jim! Valuable advice indeed. Funny you should mention the priority check list. Here is Elliott with my new Cal rudder from Foss last week…



So when that work is done, I hope thats the most likely failure addressed. I had them build with Schedule 80 rather than 40. I think that leaves the rudder tube as the weakest point and they are gusseting that. Next on the risk list (I guess) is what happens on a strike of unprotected fin/spade as well as Monitor strike. I have a question into Suzy et al. on the "GGR mods" for Monitors and also on the autopilot steering for e-rudders, which is where the thread started. I think the GGR mods probably include the stronger breakaway tubes. I have a couple of the strongest spares, but I will report back when I actually know something. Correct me if I'm wrong but rudder failures (main or pilot) seem to be the most common problem to/from Hawaii.

I have a couple of drogues including a Shark. I watched how Triteia sailed most of the way with a drogue, you can see the pole used here https://youtu.be/JpU3Ad_1pl8?t=761 and here https://youtu.be/H7X0wwGTtM0?t=439 I have no practical experience using them offshore, but plan to get some. More practical advice greatly appreciated, I was going to keep drogues to a separate thread.

 

[Gamayun]

After my last return, I am positively enraptured by my Monitor and its capabilities. I spoke to Mike at Scanmar about the E-Rud and he says that the trick is to have weather helm if you need to use it, whereas you want a balanced boat under normal Monitor conditions. That said, I've never used the M-Rud under angry sea state and rudderless conditions. Steerage is achieved from running the E-Rud lines to the cockpit winches at which point, it is no longer a self-steering device.

 

[AlanH]

My thinking on e-rudders is strongly influenced by being on the 2008 race, where Ruben Gabriel lost his mast about 800 miles out from Hawaii. I want to have solutions on the boat...options...I'm not sure I would trust something like a monitor as my only backup. That goes 2x over if there's no way to then make it self-steering. If it doesn't work very well, that's an awfully long way to drift, or sail where you have steer by hand 18 hours a day.

 

[GBR3068]

Some great comments and advice from those with real experience. Thanks! Please keep them coming as I am learning a lot.

I did start this thread with the following but I didn't include that I am changing my rudder and reinforcing steering. I do have two drogues and a pole (as used by Triteia, albeit with a full keel as opposed to fin/spade). I do have an emergency tiller and pilot for that. I do have a CPT autopilot. I have a Monitor and spare tubes. I do have three Pelagics. I do have a ram. I do want options and have some, but my main question was about the Monitor plus e-rudder option.

>>> This post is about emergency rudders and, to narrow things down so we don't explode, the question is wrt Monitors.
>>> A discussion in Seminar #2 ended with a question from someone considering which windvane to use: "Dont you lose self-steering if you use a Monitor emergency rudder" and the entire audience went silent. I dont know enough to debate this, but I understood the answer to be "No, you got several ways to steer including the Pelagic"
>>> what does the crowd here say about Monitors and E-RUDs?

I do see this at the Scanmar site https://www.scanmarinternational.com/m-rud
Adaptable to the Pelagic Autopilot and tiller pilots for electronic autopilot steering

I *think* the same three steering methods that are applicable to the old M-RUD, as described in https://www.scanmarinternational.com/_files/ugd/d14bae_5b38a132ba1c4d75b6f0928a13d749e3.pdf do still apply to the new e-rudder but I don't know that. I *think* the only or biggest difference between the old M-RUD and the new e-rudder is the former attaches instead of and the latter attaches over the existing water paddle, but I don't know that. I do have a question in to Mike, Suzy and Brian. Carliane just described an option to use fixed lines that I didnt know about. So clearly there's a lot I dont know! Does anyone else have experience with self-steering on the Monitor + E-rudder ?

Be great to get an answer to that question but do please keep advice coming as it really helps me and I think maybe others too.

 

[sleddog]

Whatever used for emergency steering wants to be tested at sea, both installation and use. In addition, your emergency steering wants to be able to get the boat to 75% speed so you can make Hanalei before deadline and get your belt buckle. Emergency steering is not just a rudder, but having worked out sail combinations and balancing. There have been boats that finished Transpac at full speed with no rudder at all, just twin jibs. RAGTIME for one. FLYING CLOUD another. The idea of towing a drogue for emergency steering is nuts in SHTP. You're gonna run low on food, water, and patience never mind all your family and friends will be gone if/when you make Kauai. My 2 cents. PS: Ruben's jury rig got him to the finish in time for a belt buckle and family.

 

[AlanH]

It's worth considering that drogues work by slowing the boat down. A LOT.

I was on board Surprise! when Bob J tested drogues at the 2020 self-steering seminar. Bob is a good sailor, he's got a nice boat, he'd thought everything through and the results were, shall we way, less than hoped.

I don't know what kind of boat you have but IMHO I would always opt for getting some kind of foil in the water, attached to something that an autopilot can wiggle back and forth.
But that's just me.

I also have in mind Rob MacFarlanes race in about '98 or thereabouts. On the way over, he hit something that jammed his very nice and solid rudder over at about 30 degrees off of fore-aft. In a situation like that, I seriously doubt that a drogue will steer a boat. Also, if you have a foil and it's 1/3rd the size of the primary rudder, it's not going to be able to compensate for that off-axis jam. Think about the size of your main rudder and the size of the Monitor e-rud. If y'all haven't seen this, here you go.

https://www.bluemoment.com/emergencyrudders.html

Here is a photo of Rob's current setup on "Big Beetle" Note that it's a cassette system. "Tiger Beetle" is an old converted one tonner.



Anyway, I know that's off the exact topic of whether the EMRUD will suffice as self-steering. It should be noted that plenty of SHTP'ers have had it on board and claimed it as their backup rudder and passed inspection. It also must be said that you simply cannot plan for every single imaginable contingency. Something COULD happen that will screw you up. You plan and plan and come up with solutions and build them/buy them and test them, but in the end you have to accept that it's possible that something horrific could go wrong and there won't be much of anything you can do about it.