Favorite Small Boats ?

[rlltrash]

Hello All;

From looking through posts and race results on this website, I see references to: J/92, Cal 2-27, Olson 25, Moore 24, and Wilderness 21. What other kinds of boats do you often see at single-handed races and sailing events? What kind of boat do you have (or want)? What are the favorite small solo boats (20' - 25') in California? (I know that many prefer boats in the 30’ – 35’ range, but I am interested in the smaller boats right now.)

Can anyone comment on boats with drop, lifting, or swing keels? Do these boats sacrifice much in the way of performance and stability? Which, if any, of these boats are good for single-handed sailing and racing?

Thanks, Richard

 

[Critter]

Richard, you might look at a Merit 25. There used to be several racing regularly in SSS (I had one), and a few have done the Singlehanded TransPac. Santa Cruz 27 is another good option.

Max

 

[Wylieguy]

Richard, There are many boats in the 20-30' range that are suitable for singlehanding. If you check the race results archive on this site you can get an idea of the ones sailed by SSS members. On the smaller end of the scale might be a Cal 20, Santana 22 (I owned one for years), or Ranger 23. In the mid-20 area might be that Cal 2-27, Express 27, Santa Cruz 27, but especially the Moore 24. At the upper end might be a Yankee 30, Newport 30 (owned one of those for years, too), Cal 2-29. These are just a few. They are all older and mostly pretty inexpensive. But most will need some refurbishing and adjusting for singlehanding unless its a boat that's been extensively singlehanded previously.
My current boat is a Wyliecat 30. It's not cheap, but it's a wonderful shorthanded boat, and even does well with a crew - I won my division in the 2010 PacCup with 3 on board. "Bandicoot" has completed 2 Singlehanded Transpacs.
I think the most important things to look for in selecting a boat for singlehanding are cost (what can you afford and what you can afford when fixing it up), a boat within your abilities, and a design with a good track record for the level of racing you're interested in (I think all of the boats I've mentioned are ocean-worthy, but there are other I wouldn't attach that endorsement to). Again comb through the race archives to see what's been and being sailed.
My personal preference it to stay away from swing keels and drop/lifting keels unless they are specifically designed for open water; none of the boats I've cited have them. But, I know there are those who might differ. Perhaps they will chime in?
Thanks for asking, Pat

 

[Philpott]

My favorite advertisement: Just Do It

 

[AlanH]

I always bought boats, except for my Cal 20, with an eye towards doing the Singlehanded TransPac. Some were better and some were worse, but still, that was always in my mind.

I used to think like this? What's the worst thing that can happen?

For example....things that can go wrong. Tearing a sail. Is that the worst thing that can happen? Not at all. Howabout.....losing all your nav lights? Nahh. So what are the worst things that can happen, aside from falling off the boat?

1. The mast falls down
2. the keel falls off
3. the hull gets a whacking great hole in it
4. a mess of bulkheads and structural elements fail

way down the list....the rudder goes away. maybe worse than that is having the rudder permanently stuck 20 degrees off from straight fore-and-aft, eh? Think about it, then ask Rob MacFarlane about that. Anyway, I always figured that if I had 24 hours, I could probably get the boat going again, no matter what except for those four things. So therefore, it behooved me to get a boat that was built such that those four things were REALLY REALLY unlikely. So I did stuff like inspect the mast really carefully and replace the standing rigging, so that the mast wouldn't fall down.

#2: The keel falls off. This is bad. Ask Ronnie Simpson about this. So I figure that I want to own a boat where it's really really unlikely to have the keel fall off. The more bolts and glue and fittings and schtick holding the keel and the boat in one piece, the better.

Swing keel boats have one bolt holding the keel to the boat. .. oh, and maybe a cable. Forget it.

Just my opinion.

 

[BobJ]

Having read your two threads together, I'm going to suggest you sail some of these boats before you try to settle on anything. One way to do this is to offer to crew in local races, especially on boats you're interested in. This will enable you to see how those boats perform and perhaps eliminate a few off your list.

To be safe sailing solo (especially racing) you need to be a pretty good sailor, having gained some experience. I'm a big fan of taking formal lessons because you can accelerate the "learning curve" by at least a year or two. While many have done it the other way around, I see buying the boat as one of the latter steps in the process, not the first. Besides, it's much cheaper to sail other people's boats.

But before too long, as Jackie says, you have to just do it.

 

[rlltrash]

My favorite advertisement: Just Do It

Having read your two threads together, I'm going to suggest you sail some of these boats before you try to settle on anything. One way to do this is to offer to crew in local races, especially on boats you're interested in. This will enable you to see how those boats perform and perhaps eliminate a few off your list.

To be safe sailing solo (especially racing) you need to be a pretty good sailor, having gained some experience. I'm a big fan of taking formal lessons because you can accelerate the "learning curve" by at least a year or two. While many have done it the other way around, I see buying the boat as one of the latter steps in the process, not the first. Besides, it's much cheaper to sail other people's boats.

But before too long, as Jackie says, you have to just do it.

Thanks to all of you. The Merit 25 is a boat that escaped my attention. I will have to see if I can find one and check it out. As for crewing and sailing lessons, I have been doing both over the past three months. Without going into the "long story," my problem is deciding which boats I want to try sailing - and then finding them. I have, indeed, sailed several boats that I thought looked great, only to come away disappointed. They were just not "right," but I learned from each experience. I don't have time to checkout every boat I see. I am hoping to get a short list of 20' - 25' boats that are known to be good single-handed racers. Answering my questions above will help me create and edit that "short list." (My current "long list" has over 60 boats on it, including the three that proved disappointing and a couple of ho-hums.) I saw a nice looking Ranger 23 today. I'll have to track down the owner and see about a sail.

As time has passed, I have redefined my "dream boat" several times: catamaran, large dinghy, keel boat, sports boat, and now single-handed racer. Unfortunately, due to costs and marina limitations, I may have to settle for a single-handed racing "trailer sailer." Is there such a boat? (Do you know anything about the J/70?) If we move to a new home, I will need a boat that can be dry stored on a trailer and ramp launched/recovered each time I use it. (Fortunately, I can store, launch, and recover it mast-up - but ramp depth is a problem.) The alternative may be a 40 mile drive (each way) to Mission Bay in San Diego (where I can dry store a boat and crane launch/recover it.) Or, I can wait a year or two for a slip.

Thanks for your help and I look forward to some more boat ideas.

Richard

 

[Matt]

Ack, stepping the mast every time you go sailing is almost as bad as driving 40mi, maybe one-way. I used to rig the mast every time I went sailing on a Hobbie Cat 16. The process was always a hassle and took an hour out of my precious sailing time. Any marinas with a hoist nearby where you can dry sail? I am fortunate that, when the hoist isn't broken, I am close enough to the hoist to push the boat on the trailer back and forth without a trailer hitch. I saw this Wilderness 21 on Latitude 38 http://latitude38.com/classifieds/classy_display.lasso?cat=24. There are a few of them like this around CA that haven't been used much fresh water sailing. Probably a lot less thrashed than Tinker.

 

[JAMcDonald]

Thanks for the mention, that is my Wilderness 21. I set her up for single handing, but then found another slightly larger boat when my nephew agreed to doublehand the Pac Cup. I have over 10k invested in the W21, including 7k in documented KKMI expenses this year. Any boat this age will require new standing rigging, probably new electrical system (most are inadequate for offshore), rebedding of fittings/backing. Most of this is done on this boat, and all that remains is to set up the running rigging as desired (i.e., some $20 blocks from Garhauer or more for Harken, etc). I second BobJ's recommendation for lessons - even though I have done ocean passages, and cruised for 4 months on a 1/4 tonner from Chesapeake Bay to Bahamas previously, I learned a lot at OCSC and feel quite comfortable singlehanding in the bay at 25-30 knots (sans solo spinnaker I should qualify but that comes next with the lighter fall winds). I've sailed with individuals who took lessons at other bay area schools, and while sample size is small and no disrespect to anyone, have a lot of trust in crew trained at OCSC. At least we all do things the same even if they are just style.

 

[ronnie simpson]

If you want a singlehanded ocean racer that is trailer able, I would recommend Moore 24, Santa cruz 27 or express 27 or Antrim 27. If you can afford to even look at j70 then I would buy an Antrim. Those things are stupid fast. Having said that I am extremely happy with my Moore. And small world, I just bought a cal 2-27 to live on and am currently cruising the PNw on it. Also a good boat. Cal 25's are also good small Singlehanders if you just want a free boat or something. You need to decide if you want a planing boat or not. I think that is mabe the most important choice.

 

[rlltrash]

If you want a singlehanded ocean racer that is trailer able, I would recommend Moore 24, Santa cruz 27 or express 27 or Antrim 27. If you can afford to even look at j70 then I would buy an Antrim. Those things are stupid fast. Having said that I am extremely happy with my Moore. . . .

You need to decide if you want a planing boat or not. I think that is maybe the most important choice.

Thank you for the reply. As an old dinghy sailor, my first thought was to get a Thistle, Lightning, Highlander, or even Raven. They are all fast but for many reasons are not suitable for single-handed ocean racing and cruising. So, yes, I love planing sailboats. However, I prefer to sit IN a boat rather than ON a boat. (You can sit IN the dinghies noted above.) This summer I sailed a Viper 640 and Open 5.70. They were great fun! But, after sailing them, I realized they are not very comfortable and are not really what I want. The J/70 looks like it is in the same class.

So, are there any planing boats of the sit IN variety? Since I may have to keep the boat on a trailer and launch and recover it each time at a boat ramp, I would like to identify a few smaller boats with retractable keels that are suitable for racing and cruising. If I can find a crane to lift the boat, or a reasonably priced slip, I can get a fixed keel boat.

Thanks again,
Richard

 

[BobJ]

I re-read your criteria - do I have this right?

1) 20'-25'
2) Ramp-launchable, stored mast-up
3) Because of (2), lifting or swing keel
4) Single-handed ocean racing and cruising
5) Sit-in vs. sit-on cockpit

Depending on where you sail (how much wind), "ocean" may not fit here and you're probably looking at one boat to mess around with locally and a different boat someday for the ocean racing - this is not a bad approach at all.

Unless it's a centerboarder, I don't think you can have cockpit seats and a planing boat in this size - the extra structure weighs too much. I can't think of one.

The closest fit is probably an Ultimate 24. It's a fine boat but I'd not take one to Hawaii, especially solo. Plus there are very few around.

If you can find a yard with a hoist your options widen significantly.

What's your budget?

 

[Mark K]

Richard,

How about a B25? It is easily trailerable and has a lifting keel... Though no "sit-in" cockpit. There are several in So Cal although I don't know of any for sale right now. It rates 138, the same as my SC-27 down here. We had one in the PSSA for some time and it did very well once dialed-in. It has its sweet spots. It would walk away from the entire fleet in the light air drifters and would start surfing and full-out planing long before my SC-27 (winds in the mid to upper teens). In winds inbetween we were very close... although the SC-27 appeared to have the edge (I'd like to think it was my superior sailing, but I know better... the SC-27's longer waterline length and much larger chute might have had something to do with it).


I really like the sailing characteristics of the B25. It was on my short list of boats years ago. I went with a SC-27 both due to timing/logistics and the feeling that it was a more robust offshore boat. That being said, the B25 in PSSA did very well on some very rough condition wintertime offshore races without issue.

Mark

 

[rlltrash]

I re-read your criteria - do I have this right?

1) 20'-25'
2) Ramp-launchable, stored mast-up
3) Because of (2), lifting or swing keel
4) Single-handed ocean racing and cruising
5) Sit-in vs. sit-on cockpit

Depending on where you sail (how much wind), "ocean" may not fit here and you're probably looking at one boat to mess around with locally and a different boat someday for the ocean racing - this is not a bad approach at all.

Unless it's a centerboarder, I don't think you can have cockpit seats and a planing boat in this size - the extra structure weighs too much. I can't think of one. The closest fit is probably an Ultimate 24. It's a fine boat but I'd not take one to Hawaii, especially solo. Plus there are very few around.

If you can find a yard with a hoist your options widen significantly.

Richard,

How about a B25? It is easily trailerable and has a lifting keel... Though no "sit-in" cockpit. There are several in So Cal although I don't know of any for sale right now. It rates 138, the same as my SC-27 down here. We had one in the PSSA for some time and it did very well once dialed-in. It has its sweet spots. It would walk away from the entire fleet in the light air drifters and would start surfing and full-out planing long before my SC-27 (winds in the mid to upper teens). In winds inbetween we were very close... although the SC-27 appeared to have the edge (I'd like to think it was my superior sailing, but I know better... the SC-27's longer waterline length and much larger chute might have had something to do with it).

I really like the sailing characteristics of the B25. It was on my short list of boats years ago. I went with a SC-27 both due to timing/logistics and the feeling that it was a more robust offshore boat. That being said, the B25 in PSSA did very well on some very rough condition wintertime offshore races without issue.

Mark

Thanks again to all of you for your replies. They are quite helpful.

Please let me clarify my criteria a little. I sail between Long Beach and San Diego. I prefer Long Beach because of the breakwater and generally stronger winds. They also have hoists for boat launching. However, we bought a retirement home in Oceanside, CA, and plan to move there when I can get my wife to retire. Oceanside has slips and ramp launching (no hoists) and the winds there (between Newport Beach and San Diego) tend to be light. I am a fair weather sailor and my ocean voyaging aspirations do not exceed occasional sails to Catalina Island. But, I do like to race now and then. Also:

1.) Faster boats are more fun than slower boats
2.) 20’ - 25” desired length, even though longer boats tend to be faster
3.) Single-handed coastal cruising and racing
4.) A fixed keel is fine until we move to Oceanside (in a year or two.) After that, a fixed keel is still okay IF I can find a reasonably priced slip and can tolerate hull cleaning, painting, and other additional maintenance. (I prefer dry storage.)
5.) The other alternative for Oceanside is a boat with a movable keel so it can be ramp launched and stored, mast-up, on a trailer.
6.) “Sit-in not on” is a preference, not a requirement. It depends upon the boat, I guess.
7.) If I get two boats, the smaller will probably be a catamaran.

Thanks for the B-25 and U-25 suggestions. They look interesting - especially for trailer boats. Will they give a Moore 24 a run for the money? Do you know anything about a: SR 25, Beneteau First 235, Santana 23 D, S2 6.9, SR 21, US 21, or Ultimate 20? They are lifting keel boats, but I know nothing about them.

This post is getting too long. The easiest thing I can ask is what boats (20’ - 25’) do you see at your racing events? How do they do in the races? In addition to the B-25, are any of them movable keel boats? I hope to develop two short lists, one for fixed keel and the other for movable keep boats.

Thanks for your help and patience, Richard

 

[BobJ]

Here is the information page from our last race. Click on Fleet Assignments and you'll have a representative list.

http://www.jibeset.net/JACKY000.php?RG=T001862026

 

[rlltrash]

Here is the information page from our last race. Click on Fleet Assignments and you'll have a representative list.

http://www.jibeset.net/JACKY000.php?RG=T001862026

Thanks, Bob. Well, back to the drawing board. I guess that confirms my earlier impression that most single-handed ocean racers sail boats >25'.

Let me change the subject a little. Have any of you ever seen small (< 26') Trimarans in single-handed races? I just came upon some information on Corsair Trimarans (24, F-24, & 750) and Dragonfly Trimarans (25 & 800). Do you know anything about these - or any similar size trimarans? Are they OK for solo sailing? Off shore racing?

Richard

 

[Critter]

Richard, you might also browse the race result archives http://sfbaysss.org/results.html to get a wider picture of what's been raced in SSS. We do have fair numbers of Cal 20s and Santana 22s.

We get Corsair/F/Sprint 24/750s too. But most of the regular posters here are monohullers. You might check out Bay Area Multihull Association, sfbama.org, for more info on those.

Max

 

[rlltrash]

Thanks again;

I did a little more checking this morning on Trimarans. It looks like they are Expensive! I will check with sfbama. This might be yet another false start.

Richard

 

[knotbum]

Lurking a bit and enjoying the discussion; I was wondering about the french boats? Hearing about the boats you race, has really expanded my concept of a safe offshore boat, but I was wondering (besides the cockpit size and drainage) what specific characteristics do you look for in deciding if a boat is reasonable capable of surviving heavy weather if encountered (bottom line, that's what we are really talking about - right?)?

 

[BobJ]

Well, surviving is certainly better than the alternative! When I looked for my single-handed racer, I looked for a 30'ish footer with an offshore racing pedigree, easily-handed systems (sprit, a-sail, fractional rig), clear, wide side decks mostly free of tripping hazards, an inboard (to charge batteries for the autopilot), mostly OSR Cat 2-3 compliant from the factory, and with a good "row-away" factor.

It also depends how competitive you are. Besides being sturdy enough to romp around in the Gulf of the Farallones, you may want a boat that can sail close to its rating single-handed. The WylieCat 30 is the best example - it struggles to sail to its rating with full crew but sails better than its rating SH or DH.

What are some examples of French boats to which you refer? (I'll look at their photos and spec's on Yachtworld.)