HF Radio Set Ups

[Wylieguy]

SSS Wisdom Pool: I'll need to install a HF radio (SSB or Amateur) on my Wyliecat 30 for the 2010 PacCup. The most obvious problem is the lack of a backstay to use as the main antenna. I'm installing an emergency rudder/"Antrim head" arrasngement using the outboard engine socket at the lower end and a newly designed top rail that will extend beyond the transom at the top. I'm thinking of installing an Outbacker marine HF antenna on that rail as the main HF antenna, with a backup long wire to be hoisted on a halyard. An alternative is to run a long wire from the pulpit to the top of the mast, again using a hoisted backup. Any thoughts on these ideas? Anyone use the Outbacker? Other thoughts?
Thanks, Pat Broderick "Nancy" (Wyliecat 30)

 

[jfoster]

HF Radio Set Ups

SSS Wisdom Pool: I'll need to install a HF radio (SSB or Amateur) on my Wyliecat 30 for the 2010 PacCup.
SNIP
Other thoughts?
Thanks, Pat Broderick "Nancy" (Wyliecat 30)

Look in the Communications forum of SSCA, in particular, recent threads such as http://ssca.org/DiscBoard/viewtopic.php?t=7543

For some valuable background look at the older thread: http://ssca.org/DiscBoard/viewtopic.php?t=269&highlight=tuning+marine+dipole

There are more cruisers out there with unstayed rigs than you might imagine, so you might pose that question on that Communications forum specifically mentioning an unstayed carbon fiber mast.Here is why:

There are some rigs out here that simply load the mast. This works well for aluminum masts such as I have on Blueberry. Not sure about a carbon fiber mast. If all sources of advice fail, just try loading the carbon fiber mast.... (grin).....

You would be a lot better to mount your antenna on the bow pulpit, rather than the stern pulpit. An unintended jibe while broad reaching downwind in large swells will whip the main sheet across the stern rail and probably shear off everything that sticks up above that railing, including your proposed emergency rudder.....

Oh yeah... one more thing... you can spend a couple of hours one day soon to get your Ham license ( no morse code needed any more) from a Ham Cram session. Contact Dave Gomberg for details. Two Ham Cram sessions wee enough for me to renew a Ham ticket I had let lapse some 50 years ago...(grin)...so you can sure do it.

 

[Wylieguy]

HF Radio Follow-up

Thanks. I have thought about the bow pulpit for a vertical antenna and that's still in the possibility ranking. There will be a solid rail across the stern to support the top of the rudder, but the tiller will be under/lower than that rail. I haven't notice the sheet whipping behind this boat when jibing. The "death zone" is the aft third of the cockpit. I am one of those old Tech+ amateur radio guys and just need to pass the additional part to get my General. I'm thinking one of the mobile HF radios for the boat. Compact and light(er). I might even use it at home as a replacement for my old FT301/FT-221R shack anchors. One of my main questions is anyone's experience with the HF Marine Outbacker in use. Thanks, Pat

 

[Alchera]

One of my main questions is anyone's experience with the HF Marine Outbacker in use. Thanks, Pat

In the five times I've done the SSS TransPac, I can recall a handful of boats that used the Outbacker. They were typically the weakest signals of the fleet, but they did work sufficiently well to maintain checkins, even if they did need a relay at times.

- Mark

 

[jfoster]

Outbacker Marine Antenna OBM

In the five times I've done the SSS TransPac, I can recall a handful of boats that used the Outbacker. They were typically the weakest signals of the fleet, but they did work sufficiently well to maintain checkins, even if they did need a relay at times.

- Mark

From the web page of the manufacturer
http://www.outbackerantennas.com/products.html

Although all Outbackers can be used in a marine environment, the OBM includes ham and ITU marine bands. Five amateur bands 75-10 meters and ITU bands in the 2, 4, 6, 8, 12, 16, and 22 MHz marine bands. 6 ft., black, rated at 300 watts P.E.P. Model # OBM

I am not sure which model of Outbacker was in use, but there is one aspect of their use that seems to be ignored in the installation.

These Outbacker antennas should NOT be used with a tuner, Tuning for transmission is done with mechanical selection of the appropriate tap on the antenna. Receiving can be done adequately with any selected tap.

I am willing to bet that those with the weakest signals were trying to feed the Outbacker with a tuner.

John
KI6HME
Blueberry, Nonsuch 22 sail#48

 

[Alchera]

I am willing to bet that those with the weakest signals were trying to feed the Outbacker with a tuner.

You would lose that bet. All the Outbacker users I remember all complained about what a pain in the ass it was to have to change the connections to switch bands, and they definitely did not have tuners! Outbackers just do not perform nearly as well as a backstay and a tuner, which is no surprise.

Might not be as much of a problem in the Pac Cup assuming you don't change bands often, but in the SSS we were constantly shifting around to try and find the best propagating and least noisy band from day to day.

- Mark

 

[jfoster]

You would lose that bet. All the Outbacker users I remember all complained about what a pain in the ass it was to have to change the connections to switch bands, and they definitely did not have tuners! Outbackers just do not perform nearly as well as a backstay and a tuner, which is no surprise.

Might not be as much of a problem in the Pac Cup assuming you don't change bands often, but in the SSS we were constantly shifting around to try and find the best propagating and least noisy band from day to day.

- Mark

You are right. I was wrong.....there that wasn't so hard for me to say....(grin)

The problem in question is how to work with a Wylicat 30. Since there seems to be a need for a masthead VHF antenna, loading the mast, as I was at first, before looking into it in detail, seemed to be the simplest solution. It is a nightmare of antenna ground isolation and coax switch requirements such as http://www.alphadeltacom.com/pg3.html

If you want to use a tuner for ease in changing bands, consider loading the wishbone. It consists of two aluminum side rails with carbon fiber nose and tail pieces similar to that shown in my own Wyliecat wishbone copy.
http://nonsuch22blueberry.blogspot.com/


The feed line would attach to the end of one side of the wishbone on the aluminum side rail, near the mast at close to the carbon fiber nose piece . I am not sure if the electrical closed loop would have to be broken with epoxy paint or not.

I sure would like to see some test results of such an antenna.

John Foster
KI6HME
Blueberry, Nonsuch 22, sail #48

 

[haulback]

here's an idea I have seen for use as an alternative for backstay antenna.

I have mentioned this before, but possibly worth repeating here again. Cheap, effective, and far more user-friendly than having to hoist a longwire antenna prior to each use. I have known boats that use it and they had very good signals.

Attach an old batten up at the masthead, sticking back aft a foot or two - far enough, in any case, that a wire run from it to your pushpit will give leech of mainsail good clearance. Batten material also acts an top insulator

Attach wire to same

hook bottom end of wire to pushpit using anything that will insulate it from the stainless steel rail ..... a strip of inner tube, old running shoe, whatever.

You now have a permanently mounted backstay antenna

Jim/Haulback

 

[jfoster]

here's an idea I have seen for use as an alternative for backstay antenna.

I have mentioned this before, but possibly worth repeating here again. Cheap, effective, and far more user-friendly than having to hoist a longwire antenna prior to each use. I have known boats that use it and they had very good signals.

Attach an old batten up at the masthead, sticking back aft a foot or two - far enough, in any case, that a wire run from it to your pushpit will give leech of mainsail good clearance. Batten material also acts an top insulator

Attach wire to same

hook bottom end of wire to pushpit using anything that will insulate it from the stainless steel rail ..... a strip of inner tube, old running shoe, whatever.

You now have a permanently mounted backstay antenna

Jim/Haulback

An elegant solution, maybe, maybe not. The Wyliecat,Freedom and Nonsuch masts blow off in puffs, loosening the initial antenna tension, perhaps to entwine the also loose in the puffs, topping lift. It would be easy enough to test some windy afternoon in the slot.

On the Nonsuch, though apparently less so on the Wyliecat, an unintentional jibe surfing down the back of a wave can whip a loop of mainsheet across the pushpit, ripping off everything in its path. If the antenna wire failed to snap off.....hmmmmm....not a pleasant thought....(grin)....

John Foster
KI6HME
Blueberry, Nonsuch 22, sail #48

 

[BobJ]

The WC30's have a lot of roach up high and full-length battens. It would take a LONG batten at the masthead to get the antenna far enough aft. It doesn't seem like that would work.

Is it possible for the antenna, if fitted loosely, to lay where a topping lift would? You'd have to run a connecting cable along the wishbone forward to the mast base area, and have insulators just above the clew and below the masthead (similar to a backstay antenna).

Hmm, the challenge with that is you want the distance from the bottom end of the antenna to the tuner to be as short as possible. Maybe the antenna could be "live" along the wishbone too, and install the tuner belowdecks near the mast.

A puzzle all right . . .

 

[jfoster]

The WC30's have a lot of roach up high and full-length battens. It would take a LONG batten at the masthead to get the antenna far enough aft. It doesn't seem like that would work.

Is it possible for the antenna, if fitted loosely, to lay where a topping lift would? You'd have to run a connecting cable along the wishbone forward to the mast base area, and have insulators just above the clew and below the masthead (similar to a backstay antenna).

Hmm, the challenge with that is you want the distance from the bottom end of the antenna to the tuner to be as short as possible. Maybe the antenna could be "live" along the wishbone too, and install the tuner below
decks near the mast.

A puzzle all right . . .

This afternoon I looked at several single masted cat boats, and came to yet another design suggestion for an alternative to the OBM Outbacker Marine since there seems to be resistance to setting tabs.

OK, a Wyliecat, or any other cat rigged mast should have a spare halyard on a block at the front of the mast. So fine. Simply run a long wire antenna up the spare halyard with the bottom fixed to a rather weak bungee cord so as not to interfere with the gust induced motion of the top of the mast.

On the Wyliecats as well as the Nonsuch catboats there is a convenient place for the tuner, and, for that matter the whole ham rig near the base of the mast, just a few feet from the bow pulpit. With a bow pulpit antenna, all leads are really short, much shorter than the stern pushpit feed.

The antenna will nicely clear the nose of the wishbone on any point of sail. The wire will be a tad closer to vertical than with a back stay mast, though there might be slightly stronger "mast effect loads with the front of the mast antenna than with a back stay antenna

I really prefer the idea of loading the wishbone with a tuner, but, lacking a ham rig of my own for testing, it is yet unproven in performance. My guess is, being much more massive than a wire antenna, it would be a sweet performer.

Anyone with a ham rig that is willing to spend a few hours testing your tuner with my wishbone, please let me know......(grin)

John Foster
KI6HME
Blueberry, Nonsuch 22, sail #48

 

[Wylieguy]

Wyliecat questions/answers

Thanks for all the feedback. I don't think any long wire antenna aft of the mast will work. Huge roach, wild jibes, you name it. At this point I'm thinking bow pulpit to masthead, but now a further question has arisen. Carbon fiber mast and RF. If I use a 37' wire for the antenna, the top section of this antenna will be line, but the top of the wire will still be in close proximity to the mast. Some have voiced a concern about that. Any ideas? I haves thought about an extension from the forward side of the masthead to move it further away from the mast.
I know changing the taps on the Outbacker would be a pain and that it doesn't use a tuner but if it worked it would be a simple solution. If it's mounted on the bow pulpit getting to it is easy.
I don't know about loading up the wishbone (I've thought about that, too). There is a mechanical/metal connection to the mast through the support wires that the booms hang on and I don't know about the conductivity of the paint.
Still thinking. Pat

 

[Alchera]

Well, the one thing you can say about the Outbacker is that even though it's not the strongest signal, it does seem to work well enough to do a TransPac communication sched and it's a cheap solution.

As for running a wire up from the pulpit, that could work, but I would terminate the wire far short of the top of the mast, so that you lessen the RF 'coupling' effect from the top of the mast. You'll still need a tuner though.

- Mark

 

[Ergo]

Hi Pat,

In 2004 I used a 17' whip antenna. I think it was a Shakespear and I got it on-line for about $150. I mounted it on the stern pulpit, hooked it up to the tuner and it worked fine. There was also a 23' version.

Bill Merrick

 

[brianb]

antenna for wylie cat

I have used a marine whip, as suggested by ERgo, on 4 Pac Cups and several other offshore events. They work great. The key to any of this is the ground system as well as antenna. Get a good Ground.

The out backer will give poor results at the lower end of the maring freq. range due to the small wire size and high losses in the coils made on the outbacker shaft. You have an autotuner, it does what the outbacker tries to do, that is tune the system to resonance so it radiates.



Regards,

Brian Boschma
s/v Redsky.....

 

[jfoster]

I have used a marine whip, as suggested by ERgo, on 4 Pac Cups and several other offshore events. They work great. The key to any of this is the ground system as well as antenna. Get a good Ground.
SNIP
Brian Boschma
s/v Redsky.....

There is an outfit http://www.ropeantenna.com/ that make up a complete spare halyard antenna package including the ground plate, counterpoise copper foil and the other bits of stuff. They have various sizes including one perfectly suited for bow pulpit to spare halyard block of the Wyliecat 30. Because the insulated antenna wire is in the core of a spare halyard, there is no shock hazard easily possible.

Even if you do not plan to buy anything from them, check out their well illustrated and very detailed tutorial on their counterpoise and grounding installation.

John Foster
KI6HME
Blueberry, Nonsuch 22 sail#48

 

[sleddog]

It seemed most SHTP radio coms were during hours of darkness or squalls. Can't imagine going to bow or stern in the dark to change frek tab on Outbacker is a good solution. SSB transceiver antennae is not rocket science. More likely trial and error. When we were dismasted in '97 Transpac with nothing left above deck level, the upper lifeline connected to the tuner worked as an antenna just fine, and I talked with Kentucky on ham.

~sleddog