Lithium batteries

[Jerome]

Does anyone have any experience, links, where to buy, how to regarding lithium batteries.
I'm tired of Agm. from what I read, this investment will pay off and lithium are cheaper in the long run.
Like 2012, I will be using solar and fuel cell during the race. The combo worked great.

 

[pogen]

Longtime SSS vet Greg is your man for marine batteries...

http://www.racecell.com/

 

[Jerome]

Longtime SSS vet Greg is your man for marine batteries...

http://www.racecell.com/

Thanks! Will definitely look into it.

Jerome

 

[JAMcDonald]

Jerome, I'm building & testing a DIY LiFePO4 bank. Here's a couple of sites you may find helpful:

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/lifepo4_on_boats Very comprehensive and worth reading before going down this path.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f14/lifepo4-for-dummies-119895.html#post1456703 Hundreds of posts, some very helpful.

The "turn key" systems are very expensive, the diy time consuming. As an alternative, Liam Dao at LTD Marine Electronics (Alameda Marina) is carrying the new Firefly Carbon Foam batteries which offer some LiFePO4 advantages such as rapid charging (less internal resistance) and partial discharge without sulfation. They are, however, just as heavy as AGM or other lead acid technology.

If you get interested in a diy system let me know and I’ll share my systems schematics. It is neither cheap nor simple. Also be aware that many charging protocols baked into commercial products, even those marketed for LiFePO4, are not congruent with the actual requirements.

 

[brianb]

Jerome, I'm building & testing a DIY LiFePO4 bank. Here's a couple of sites you may find helpful:

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/lifepo4_on_boats Very comprehensive and worth reading before going down this path.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f14/lifepo4-for-dummies-119895.html#post1456703 Hundreds of posts, some very helpful.

The "turn key" systems are very expensive, the diy time consuming. As an alternative, Liam Dao at LTD Marine Electronics (Alameda Marina) is carrying the new Firefly Carbon Foam batteries which offer some LiFePO4 advantages such as rapid charging (less internal resistance) and partial discharge without sulfation. They are, however, just as heavy as AGM or other lead acid technology.

If you get interested in a diy system let me know and I’ll share my systems schematics. It is neither cheap nor simple. Also be aware that many charging protocols baked into commercial products, even those marketed for LiFePO4, are not congruent with the actual requirements.

Are these really safe ? I know of three cases where these batteries caught fire (a well known issue with LiIon, supposedly not so bad with LiFe) after discharging too far, in spite of limiting circuitry. I wonder if using LiIon on a single handed boat is at all advisable ?

 

[pogen]

I ran my LiFe bank to zero, and nothing bad happened. Other than it was difficult to recharge. They were set up with all sorts of fuses and protection circuits.

For added protection one could add crotch straps.

 

[BobJ]

I had to add a dedicated starting battery for PacCup. I installed a 26Ah AGM normally sold for PWC's. It's small/light, plays well with the two larger AGM's in my house bank and has enough CCA's to start the little Yanmar. The solar charge controller sends 10% of the charge to it and 90% to the house bank. Works great, it's simple and most important, I understand it. Oh, and it was relatively cheap.

 

[pogen]

I've got a lead-acid starting battery and a LiFePo4 house bank coupled via a MagnumEnergy smart combiner, the idea being that if the house bank goes low the starter battery is cut out of the circuit and protected.

Two issues -- the switch FET in the Magnum blew up at one point, and the starter battery was not getting charged, which was hard to debug, and meant the replacement of the Magnum.

The other thing that happened was that through operator error, I let the house bank drain completely, and then when I tried to charge it from the shore power (or switch in the starter battery) the inrush of current to the empty battery kept blowing the terminal fuses on the battery -- I had in the end to get a linear supply from work and very gently charge the battery up to the point where conventional means could be used. For emergencies I am making up some dummy shorts that will take the place of the fuses on the batteries.

The solar panel charge controller is setup to feed the higher-voltage Li housebank, that then spills over to keep the starter charged.

I also built a test load, essentially a 1 ohm resistor on a fan cooled heatsink that draws about 13 A when put in parallel with the house panel. This is useful for testing the capacity and discharge curve of your bank, as otherwise it is very tedious to watch the battery discharge even when all the radios and lights are on. The fan is needed because the otherwise the resistors and heatsink get way too hot to touch.

 

[Ragnar]

Lithium Starting Batteries
With portable lithium batteries available such as this: http://www.cyntur.com/Store/Product-Viewer/lithium-ionjumpstarter , not really sure why a separate wired-in starting battery is necessary anymore. Just put a monitor on the House bank & have the portable charged up for the rare just in case moments. Hell, carry 2 or 3. Simpler. Anyone see a problem with this approach?

Lithium House Bank
Lithium battery pricing is falling due to adoption in automotive as supply chains get streamlined. RVers are starting to use lithium batteries. One source here: http://www.amsolar.com/home/amr/smartlist_131/lithium_batteries.html

 

[brianb]

Zimaz, Those batteries are excellent for the emergency re start, and since they are LiPo they lose charge very slowly. Plus, being isolated, you are not going to inadvertently discharge or overcharge.

Boeing's view on the topic of Li batt's :
Boeing's recent guidance to passenger airlines advising that they not carry lithium-ion batteries in their cargo holds stems from the recommendations an industry-wide group has presented to the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO). It recognizes that fire suppression systems as currently certified cannot stop a fire involving bulk quantities of the batteries, said Boeing’s technical safety chief for fire protection.

Also, they had a 787 land with smoldering LiIon batts that were designed into the plane (as I recall).

I was considering a set for my boat, but there is no putting them out if the start to burn.

 

[brianb]

I bet they had a complete set of operational protection circuits in place ? If these get defeated somehow it can be ugly.

 

[pogen]

I was considering a set for my boat, but there is no putting them out if the start to burn.

Well if mine start burning they will not be in the boat long, they will melt their way through the hull in fairly short order. I think Li burns like Mg, that is, almost impossible to put out.

 

[solosailor]

Certain chemistry types like lithium cobalt and manganese can actually catch fire and continue to burn even under water..... think 4th of July sparkler. Most lithium solution like lithium iron phosphate among others will overheat and eventually melt down but won't actually catch fire or contribute to the fire.

 

[hodgmo]

"For emergencies I am making up some dummy shorts that will take the place of the fuses on the batteries."

Be very careful: a primary purpose of a fuse is to prevent electrical fires in the wiring harness.

 

[Wylieguy]

Model Boat Lithium Battery Fire

Several years ago while I was teaching a semester in London I'd head over to Kensington Palace each Sunday morning to join the London Model Yacht Club (Prince Philip was their sponsor). We'd meet at their clubhouse, an old garden building that housed a collection of model yachts dating back to their founding in 1876, collect the boats they currently sailing, 10 Raters, and walk over to the Round Pond. The members were a cross section of London guys, mostly older, ranging from working stiffs to the bloke who drove up in his Aston Martin. We'd make our way through Kensington Gardens on paths, through several gates, and to the Round Pond with it's Royal Swans (who belong to the Queen and can't be molested). One Sunday morning Mr. Aston Martin roared into the car park, got his custom carbon fiber 10 rater with custom fiber sails ready, and joined the parade over to the Round Pond. They graciously loaned me an older fiberglass boat sitting on a converted London Mail cart with Dacron sails. Typical London morning: foggy, damp, chilly, grey, so we all had our Macs on. About halfway to the Pond, Mr. Aston Martin, who was leading the pack, began jumping around, knocked his boat off the cart, rolled on the wet lawn, frantically clutching at his trouser pockets. Turns out he put a spare Lithium battery in the same pocket as his car keys. The keys shorted across the contacts and welded themselves to the battery contacts. The battery burned a hole in his trousers, fell out onto the wet lawn, and proceeded to burn for 10 minutes. The Fire brigade showed up, but by then there was just a black hole in the lawn and some acrid smoke. Mr. Aston Martin visited the hospital and showed up the several Sundays later limping badly with a skin graft - which he chose not to show us. In the meantime someone with a spare key had showed up to collect his Aston Martin and drive it away. The battery was a bag about the size of a small matchbox with two wires as contacts.

 

[brianb]

A bike riding buddy, who I do night riding with on local trails, has designed his own LiFe battery packs and chargers. Two have caught fire in the house. One was being charged, one being discharged into a large lamp. He has modified the charger a bit and now places them in a metal trash can when charging. The battery pack size is similar to what Pat describes in the model boat passage. I wonder is there any means of fire suppression for these energy dense chemistry's, they are so enticing for weight savings.

 

[hodgmo]

The details depend on the size of the battery and its environment, but the only 'sure-fire' way to deal with a Li-based battery fire that I'm aware of is to jettison the burning battery and, if necessary, use conventional handheld fire extinguishers, eg, water (or better, foam) or ABC dry chemical, to put out secondary fires. If the burning battery can't be jettisoned, a class D extinguisher is recommended but who has that on their boat? Next best is to attack (quench) the fire with an aqueous agent - AFFF foam or plain water - and ice has been found to be somewhat helpful in slowing fire spread. Toxic combustion byproducts (poisonous gases) are a concern with Li-based battery fires, and this safety hazard is significantly increased if a 'clean' gaseous agent, eg, Halon or HFC-227ea (aka FM-200), is applied - so don't do that!

 

[Harrier]

This hi tech stuff to save 0.001% gross weight of a 7000 pound (and up) boat is very interesting. Glad I don;t have to give it much thought tho. I've been quite pleased with the gel call and then AGM batts I converted to 15 years ago...maybe farther back. It would appear that not every thing is known about these lithium critters. Call me a scaredy cat if you wish, but I don't think proceeding singlehanded over thousands of miles blue ocean with an "experimental" set-up is wise, esp since the expected payoff is so minimal for the boats most of the SHTP competitors use.
But I'll be watching the results...!

 

[pogen]

The best benefit of Li is fast charge acceptance, and useful storage density where ones space may be limited. For me at least, weight is a more remote consideration.

 

[solosailor]

I don't think proceeding singlehanded over thousands of miles blue ocean with an "experimental" set-up is wise

Lithium battery installations with safe chemistry have been in use for many years, decades for some. I've had them onboard my own and other boats I've distance ocean raced for 6+ years along with 60+ other boats I've helped switch over. The 2nd and 3rd overall finishers in the the last SHTP had them onboard along with many other boats with Hawaii and Mexico races under their belts. They are in use from Mini-Transats to Volvo 70s and beyond.

If the burning battery can't be jettisoned, a class D extinguisher is recommended but who has that on their boat?

If the proper chemistry is used there will be no "fire" from the battery itself, only the possibility of a meltdown or a fire caused by excessive current or heat (not fused). The only real way to "slow down" a dangerous chemistry lithium fire is to cover in sand.... not quite practical. Don't ever use LiPo, Li-Cobalt, Li-Manganese.... they all suffer from thermal runaway and can cause an actual fire that they self feed and can't be put out.