pogen
Sailing canoe "Kūʻaupaʻa"
The NOR is UP!
Keep current with the latest LongPac announcements on the LongPac page
http://sfbaysss.org/main/longpac-2015/
Got my raft reserved; how about you?
-
Ahoy and Welcome to the New SSS Forums!!
As you can see, we have migrated our old forums to new software. All your old posts, threads, attachments, and messages should be here. If you see anything out of place or have any questions, please scroll to the very bottom of the page and click "Contact Us" and leave a note with as much detail as possible.
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Cheers - Bryan
LongPac NOR, SI, MEL discussion
- Thread starter pogen
- Start date
The NOR is UP!
Keep current with the latest LongPac announcements on the LongPac page
http://sfbaysss.org/main/longpac-2015/
Got my raft reserved; how about you?
Thank you, Bob.
Having just read this very closely and comparing it to past LongPac requirements I too share many of the same concerns as Bob. Many of these require me to change or repurchase certain products (such as my mainsail that I just ordered with a 2nd deep reef in lieu of the trisail). To some degree I expected a few changes but I look forward to a fruitful discussion that can address all of the issues Bob has pointed out.
Having just read this very closely and comparing it to past LongPac requirements I too share many of the same concerns as Bob. Many of these require me to change or repurchase certain products (such as my mainsail that I just ordered with a 2nd deep reef in lieu of the trisail). To some degree I expected a few changes but I look forward to a fruitful discussion that can address all of the issues Bob has pointed out.
Agree with Bob's comments in general, but especially these two:
I have a deep second and a drogue for an emergency rudder. I really hope this is sufficient as I doubt I will get a true emergency rudder built just for one race.
I have a deep second and a drogue for an emergency rudder. I really hope this is sufficient as I doubt I will get a true emergency rudder built just for one race.
Not to seem overly critical or unappreciative of the work of those running the LongPac, but...
The 2015 LongPac MER's look like a fairly superficial adaptation of the US Sailing Safety at Sea requirements. I think more thought should have gone into the modifications to the source requirements to meet the specific needs and goals of the SSS. I agree with most of BobJ's comments and some of the following duplicates his commentary. But here are my own thoughts on the matter:
2.3.3 Are stoves really necessary?
2.5.1 "...pump discharge shall not be connected to cockpit drain." What does this do to all the Moore 24's, Express 27's etc. that are constructed with the pump discharge into the cockpit drains?
2.5.2 Many, if not most, of the small boats do not have a second permanently installed bilge pump. My recollection is that in the past, a second, portable pump was adequate.
2.5.3 Completely redundant.
3.10 I really hate requirements for cell phones on boats. They are useless off shore (and sometimes in the bay) and are not an effective means of communicating in an emergency. The VHF and EPIRB should be adequate.
3.15 BobJ, you have to push it yourself before you fall overboard.
3.20 Are the self-printable NOAA booklet charts adequate? (They have been in the past.)
3.24 What constitutes a "searchlight?" How many lumens? At what point does a flash light become bright enough to serve as a search light? Will a search light powered by the vessel's 12v system be acceptable?
3.28 Definitely for crewed boats. And kind of silly even for DH'd boats. This kind of thing seems most useful for boats with large numbers of crew where some of the crew may be unfamiliar with the boat.
3.33.1 & 3.33.2 These seem like big changes from past requirements for mainsail area reduction capabilities.
3.33.3 & 3.33.4 These seem redundant. Would the storm jib (3.33.4) meet the requirement of the heavy weather jib (3.33.3)?
3.38 Stating "adequate food" should be enough. Explicitly listing "energy bars, and snacks" seems like a menu requirement. (Although, I suppose you could get some "snack bars" and satisfy both.)
4.1.1 As noted by others, this will likely eliminate more participants than any other rule in the MER's.
4.2 BobJ, you need to start practicing your SH'd MOB drills. NO excuses!
I hope the Safety/Rules committee will convene as BobJ mentioned and review things.
The 2015 LongPac MER's look like a fairly superficial adaptation of the US Sailing Safety at Sea requirements. I think more thought should have gone into the modifications to the source requirements to meet the specific needs and goals of the SSS. I agree with most of BobJ's comments and some of the following duplicates his commentary. But here are my own thoughts on the matter:
2.3.3 Are stoves really necessary?
2.5.1 "...pump discharge shall not be connected to cockpit drain." What does this do to all the Moore 24's, Express 27's etc. that are constructed with the pump discharge into the cockpit drains?
2.5.2 Many, if not most, of the small boats do not have a second permanently installed bilge pump. My recollection is that in the past, a second, portable pump was adequate.
2.5.3 Completely redundant.
3.10 I really hate requirements for cell phones on boats. They are useless off shore (and sometimes in the bay) and are not an effective means of communicating in an emergency. The VHF and EPIRB should be adequate.
3.15 BobJ, you have to push it yourself before you fall overboard.
3.20 Are the self-printable NOAA booklet charts adequate? (They have been in the past.)
3.24 What constitutes a "searchlight?" How many lumens? At what point does a flash light become bright enough to serve as a search light? Will a search light powered by the vessel's 12v system be acceptable?
3.28 Definitely for crewed boats. And kind of silly even for DH'd boats. This kind of thing seems most useful for boats with large numbers of crew where some of the crew may be unfamiliar with the boat.
3.33.1 & 3.33.2 These seem like big changes from past requirements for mainsail area reduction capabilities.
3.33.3 & 3.33.4 These seem redundant. Would the storm jib (3.33.4) meet the requirement of the heavy weather jib (3.33.3)?
3.38 Stating "adequate food" should be enough. Explicitly listing "energy bars, and snacks" seems like a menu requirement. (Although, I suppose you could get some "snack bars" and satisfy both.)
4.1.1 As noted by others, this will likely eliminate more participants than any other rule in the MER's.
4.2 BobJ, you need to start practicing your SH'd MOB drills. NO excuses!
I hope the Safety/Rules committee will convene as BobJ mentioned and review things.
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solosailor
New member
This is new. The SSS has always made our own rules and the LongPac and SHTP have gone through many years of thoughtful modifications.
Copy/Paste of other safety orgs regs with a few mods aren't a good idea for the organization and don't cut it in my book.
The posted MELs are a complete mess compared to the SSS's long standing Longpac rules as noted with many redundant and rules that have never been used by the SSS.
What happened to the separate SSS Safety Committee who reviews and makes rule changes..... they obviously didn't make these rules.
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The 2015 LongPac MER is based upon the 2013 LongPac "Rules and Conditions." Please read the 2013 LongPac "Rules and Conditions" and compare those requirements with the 2015 LongPac MER. A close comparison should show that almost all the rules are the same or similar, but in a more ordered format. The 2013 LongPac Rules and Conditions" are available on the SSS website: <sfbaysss.org>
The USSER format has been adapted for the 2015 LongPac MER. The USSER is a flexible format designed to be modified by users; there are no absolute USSA requirements. The entire document is adaptable. It is organized into Sections ("Overall" "Hull" "Safety Equipment" etc. - left hand column), making it easier to find a requirement.
It is also a format which will become familiar to ocean racers. The USSER format is being used, as modified, by OYRA and will be used for other coastal ocean races starting in 2015. 2016 PacCup racers will also find it familiar.
The history of the USSER traces back to the NORC MER which traces back to the SSS Rules and Conditions. The SSS had direct representation when the NORC MER were written. Many of the USSER requirements are word for word, or very similarly worded, to the 2013 LongPac and 1014 SHPT "Race Rules and Conditions." The organizational format is different, divided into sections as explained above.
The SSS uses USSA's "The Racing Rules of Sailing" in much the same way, modifying those Rules which affect shorthanded sailing as the SSS defines it. Two common examples of SSS modifications to the RRS are allowing auto steering and twin headsails.
The USSER format has been adapted for the 2015 LongPac MER. The USSER is a flexible format designed to be modified by users; there are no absolute USSA requirements. The entire document is adaptable. It is organized into Sections ("Overall" "Hull" "Safety Equipment" etc. - left hand column), making it easier to find a requirement.
It is also a format which will become familiar to ocean racers. The USSER format is being used, as modified, by OYRA and will be used for other coastal ocean races starting in 2015. 2016 PacCup racers will also find it familiar.
The history of the USSER traces back to the NORC MER which traces back to the SSS Rules and Conditions. The SSS had direct representation when the NORC MER were written. Many of the USSER requirements are word for word, or very similarly worded, to the 2013 LongPac and 1014 SHPT "Race Rules and Conditions." The organizational format is different, divided into sections as explained above.
The SSS uses USSA's "The Racing Rules of Sailing" in much the same way, modifying those Rules which affect shorthanded sailing as the SSS defines it. Two common examples of SSS modifications to the RRS are allowing auto steering and twin headsails.
brianb
Olson 34 Driver
pogen
Sailing canoe "Kūʻaupaʻa"
The governor of New Jersey?
It may be there was some group that last met a couple of years ago, but I for one never heard of it and I have been in the board loop for a year and a half, and gone to nearly every SHTP seminar and meeting for years, though I haven't done the race. There is certainly no mention of it in the Bylaws. I don't believe either the last LongPac or the last SHTP had any sort of input from a committee. Not that that might not be a good idea.
It may be there was some group that last met a couple of years ago, but I for one never heard of it and I have been in the board loop for a year and a half, and gone to nearly every SHTP seminar and meeting for years, though I haven't done the race. There is certainly no mention of it in the Bylaws. I don't believe either the last LongPac or the last SHTP had any sort of input from a committee. Not that that might not be a good idea.
BobJ
Alerion 38 "Surprise!"
David, every SHTP I've been involved with had a group behind the scenes reviewing and at times vigorously debating proposed changes to our rules. When Synthia ran the 2008 race the meeting(s) were held at the Rooster/UK loft in Alameda. When I co-chaired the 2010 race the group met at RYC. I had a committee of 12 review my proposed changes. All the locals were former SHTP Race Chairs, plus I had Skip Allan's and Evans Starzinger's input via e-mail. Not all of my proposed changes were approved - I still think I had a good lifeline solution for the smaller boats but it got shot down.
Rob (2010 co-chair) ran the 2012 race so changes were minor but they were not made in isolation. Then when George offered to chair the 2014 race he brought the committee back together to review his proposed changes. The meeting was at IYC and included Rob MacFarlane, Synthia, me, Rob Tryon, Mark Deppe and Max Crittenden. Jim Q was invited but could not attend. George was not able to see it through and Ben, Lucie and Brian ended up running the 2014 race. This is my recollection of the details and I may have a name or two wrong.
This was the culture of the SSS and hopefully it still is. It is why our rules have stood the test of time and are appropriate for the kind of racing we do. The experienced skippers in the organization, as a group, have maintained the rules for our races. Now there is a big push to conform our rules to what US Sailing has developed for crewed racing which as Pat mentioned, had roots in the SSS rules for our local ocean races. BTW, the reason SSS had so much influence was we reached a point with NorCalORC where we had to say "If that's what you want to do, we'll keep what we have." NorCalORC came around, took our list and went from there. In exchange, SSS agreed to use the NorCalORC requirements for our races outside the Bay. Since we did that, participation in those races has dropped significantly and I would fully support returning to our previous rule set for them. We still use our own list for the races inside the Bay and participation in those races has increased.
WRT the LongPac, when the NorCalORC rules were adopted for our local ocean races the LongPac was not included (as clearly stated by both NorCalORC and SSS). Since it is preparatory and a qualifier for the SHTP in the SSS progression, LongPac has tracked the SHTP rules. In fact, all that needs to be done is to take the SHTP rules and remove the major items that LongPac has traditionally not required (e-steering and SSB/satphone are the biggies).
Finally - Organizationally, the challenge we face is that our officers are also our board and they turn over every two years. Membership itself is a year-to-year thing for many - we don't charge a big initiation fee to encourage long-term membership and involvement. Therefore things like a safety/rules committee are important to maintain long-term continuity. Every member of the board is appreciated and well-meaning, but the structure makes it easy to forget "how we got here" over the 37 years of our history. As I've written privately, I believe we are at a crossroads over these rules. Rather than conform to an outside set of generic rules I'd like to see the SSS continue to provide leadership in evaluating techniques, equipment and suitable boats for shorthanded and specifically, singlehanded, racing. This is what our founding documents state is the reason for the SSS's existence.
If you've made it this far, this narrative is an appeal. In recent years we've lost some of our long-time experienced skippers. Those of you who live locally and have raced in the SHTP, or have many years of shorthanded Bay racing experience, are needed to keep SSS going as the organization it has always been. Some of you are still around but have pulled back from active involvement. Please contact the board and offer to help by speaking at a seminar or serving on the rules or race committees. Yes, you may be subject to some vigorous debate and push-back - it's part of what makes SSS what it has become: a capable group of skippers and the largest shorthanded sailing group in the country.
Rob (2010 co-chair) ran the 2012 race so changes were minor but they were not made in isolation. Then when George offered to chair the 2014 race he brought the committee back together to review his proposed changes. The meeting was at IYC and included Rob MacFarlane, Synthia, me, Rob Tryon, Mark Deppe and Max Crittenden. Jim Q was invited but could not attend. George was not able to see it through and Ben, Lucie and Brian ended up running the 2014 race. This is my recollection of the details and I may have a name or two wrong.
This was the culture of the SSS and hopefully it still is. It is why our rules have stood the test of time and are appropriate for the kind of racing we do. The experienced skippers in the organization, as a group, have maintained the rules for our races. Now there is a big push to conform our rules to what US Sailing has developed for crewed racing which as Pat mentioned, had roots in the SSS rules for our local ocean races. BTW, the reason SSS had so much influence was we reached a point with NorCalORC where we had to say "If that's what you want to do, we'll keep what we have." NorCalORC came around, took our list and went from there. In exchange, SSS agreed to use the NorCalORC requirements for our races outside the Bay. Since we did that, participation in those races has dropped significantly and I would fully support returning to our previous rule set for them. We still use our own list for the races inside the Bay and participation in those races has increased.
WRT the LongPac, when the NorCalORC rules were adopted for our local ocean races the LongPac was not included (as clearly stated by both NorCalORC and SSS). Since it is preparatory and a qualifier for the SHTP in the SSS progression, LongPac has tracked the SHTP rules. In fact, all that needs to be done is to take the SHTP rules and remove the major items that LongPac has traditionally not required (e-steering and SSB/satphone are the biggies).
Finally - Organizationally, the challenge we face is that our officers are also our board and they turn over every two years. Membership itself is a year-to-year thing for many - we don't charge a big initiation fee to encourage long-term membership and involvement. Therefore things like a safety/rules committee are important to maintain long-term continuity. Every member of the board is appreciated and well-meaning, but the structure makes it easy to forget "how we got here" over the 37 years of our history. As I've written privately, I believe we are at a crossroads over these rules. Rather than conform to an outside set of generic rules I'd like to see the SSS continue to provide leadership in evaluating techniques, equipment and suitable boats for shorthanded and specifically, singlehanded, racing. This is what our founding documents state is the reason for the SSS's existence.
If you've made it this far, this narrative is an appeal. In recent years we've lost some of our long-time experienced skippers. Those of you who live locally and have raced in the SHTP, or have many years of shorthanded Bay racing experience, are needed to keep SSS going as the organization it has always been. Some of you are still around but have pulled back from active involvement. Please contact the board and offer to help by speaking at a seminar or serving on the rules or race committees. Yes, you may be subject to some vigorous debate and push-back - it's part of what makes SSS what it has become: a capable group of skippers and the largest shorthanded sailing group in the country.
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solosailor
New member
1st rules meeting I attended (prior to there being a safety committee) was in 2002 or so and of course a group had meet for every STHP prior. The safety committee came about years later.
The rules should not be changed at every race chairs whim. The safety committee and prior groups spend many many hours hashing this stuff out.
When Ben and I agreed to take over chairing last year's race from George Lythcott there was no mention of any Safety Committee meeting. Much Forum discussion and anger resulted. In adapting the 2013 LONGPAC and the 2014 TransPac NOR and RRCS, my guidelines were the prior races. Before publication a committee of rigorous readers, past race chairs and others, combed through them.
As it happened, one reader who was very active in the creation on the NCORC MEL did a copy and paste of that section.
Because SSS was active in the NCORC meetings, and agreed to follow that first edition,SSS lost a lot of the sail wit what ya got attitude in our Race Committee rules.
To the extent that it was feasible in the changing climate of safety and individual responsiblity, the SSS Standing SIs stated that the LongPac and TransPac are excluded from them.
If there exists a Safety Committee, perhaps their meetings could be noticed in advance? Our their recommendations be posted?
As it happened, one reader who was very active in the creation on the NCORC MEL did a copy and paste of that section.
Because SSS was active in the NCORC meetings, and agreed to follow that first edition,SSS lost a lot of the sail wit what ya got attitude in our Race Committee rules.
To the extent that it was feasible in the changing climate of safety and individual responsiblity, the SSS Standing SIs stated that the LongPac and TransPac are excluded from them.
If there exists a Safety Committee, perhaps their meetings could be noticed in advance? Our their recommendations be posted?
pogen
Sailing canoe "Kūʻaupaʻa"
LongPac MER is up (again)!
http://sfbaysss.org/main/LongPacMer2015
Philpott
Cal 2-27 Dura Mater
are flares ever on sale at the boat show?
BobJ
Alerion 38 "Surprise!"
I don't think the good SOLAS flares are, and they'd get snapped up fast if they were.
I assume the extra flares (vs. what NorCalORC requires, for example) are because of the ramp-up to SHTP requirements? Since EPIRB's have become the primary "I'm in trouble" signal while flares are to help rescuers spot you on scene, my opinion is the lesser number required by NorCalORC is adequate. Moreover, life rafts are required for LongPac and there are flares in the raft if you had to abandon ship.
Finally, we all know they expire (unlike most of our other safety gear). I bought a whole set for Pacific Cup and they'll barely still be in-date for the 2016 SHTP.
I assume the extra flares (vs. what NorCalORC requires, for example) are because of the ramp-up to SHTP requirements? Since EPIRB's have become the primary "I'm in trouble" signal while flares are to help rescuers spot you on scene, my opinion is the lesser number required by NorCalORC is adequate. Moreover, life rafts are required for LongPac and there are flares in the raft if you had to abandon ship.
Finally, we all know they expire (unlike most of our other safety gear). I bought a whole set for Pacific Cup and they'll barely still be in-date for the 2016 SHTP.