Non spinnaker rating?

[WBChristie]

Having read through the NCPHRF rules, it appears that there is no rating gain for not carrying spinnakers. But the rules are formulated with "normal" racing in mind, not a race to Hawaii.
Can someone knowledgeable comment on this? Right now I'm assuming the rating does not change for not carrying a spinnaker...

Thanks

 

[BobJ]

Right, the SHTP rating (fka PCR) does not change for not having a spinnaker. See the NorCal PHRF Rules and Guidelines under "assumptions."

But why would you want to "race" to Hawaii without one? It's a downwind race, right? You don't need the SSS to sail to Hawaii without a kite.

 

[WBChristie]

Right, the SHTP rating (fka PCR) does not change for not having a spinnaker. See the NorCal PHRF Rules and Guidelines under "assumptions."

But why would you want to "race" to Hawaii without one? It's a downwind race, right? You don't need the SSS to sail to Hawaii without a kite.

Thanks BobJ. Yes. right - its a race and as such it is important to know the rules. If I were just sailing to Hawaii I wouldn't be asking these questions.

 

[Mewes]

Gary,

In my short time watching the race, what I've observed is that, while most...but not all...Carry kites, it's the twin headsail set up which sails most of the race.

That doesn't answer your rating question, so I'll review this with Brian if we don't see enough opinions on the forum.

This reply is in now way intended to say anything negative about Bob's comment. He's far more experienced with all ratings discussions.

Lucie

 

[WBChristie]

Gary,

In my short time watching the race, what I've observed is that, while most...but not all...Carry kites, it's the twin headsail set up which sails most of the race.

That doesn't answer your rating question, so I'll review this with Brian if we don't see enough opinions on the forum.

This reply is in now way intended to say anything negative about Bob's comment. He's far more experienced with all ratings discussions.

Lucie

Thanks for that Lucie....my question was more about clarifying the ratings than wanting to change them. If there was a penalty for carrying spinnakers (or a rating gain for not carrying them) I would consider not carrying them and instead having a .75oz set of twins made ...or something like that. I was not intending to be controversial.

 

[sleddog]

The "Downwind" portion of a race to Hawaii doesn't really begin until almost halfway, southwest of the Pacific High SE lobe, west of 135 degrees, where the tradewinds begin.

I can see some SHTP skippers "racing" to Hawaii without flying a spinnaker much at all. Been there, done that. Yes, flying a spinnaker to Hawaii is a rite of passage. But there are more than a few SHTP competitors who are not familiar or uncomfortable with spinnakers, don't have the proper rigging or gear, whose autopilot or windvane can't keep up, or whose heavier displacement boat goes hull speed dead downwind just fine, thank you, with twin jibs or a poled out headsail.

Racing SHTP to Hawaii is not all about going fast in spurts. Sometimes the time lost changing from poled headsail(s) to spinnaker and then back to poled headsail(s) exceeds the extra distance possibly made gained when flying a spinnaker. Such a sail change may take 10-15 minutes, even for those who have practiced.

RAGTIME remembers a fierce and practiced competitor in the 2008 SHTP was the O-30 POLAR BEAR. Eric routinely ditched his spinny after dark with arrival of the "first squall." And carried on at night with a poled out #2 while he caught up on sleep. At minimum loss in speed and gain in safety.

We also remember in the same race one competitor arriving with shards of burnt spinnaker flying from his forestay where he used a flare hoisted on a boathook to torch his spinnaker wrapped tightly around the headstay. He had sailed much of his race under main alone.

Of course if your boat is a Cal-40 named GREEN BUFFALO, spinnakering through the night while napping is SOP.

I think it is a legit question. Anyone who wants to be competitive racing to Hawaii, whether SHTP or Pac Cup, is researching rating assumptions, and trying to figure out gain/loss of different sail combinations.

 

[BobJ]

That's what I'm presently doing and the gurus have come up with some interesting ideas. Unfortunately they involve spending money. But it's fun - I love this stuff!

10-12 years ago I corresponded with the local PHRF committee regarding the non-spinnaker question. It seemed to me that if a set of non-spinnaker ratings could be developed, or a flat adjustment for racing non-spinnaker could be used, more skippers might come out and race their boats single or double-handed. For example, at that time you got a 12 sec/mile allowance in the OYRA races for racing singlehanded. That was a good deal.

The next year the committee added some guiding language to the PHRF Rules and Regs for racing non-spinnaker, but concluded those paragraphs with the strong recommendation that non-spinnaker boats race in separate divisions from spinnaker boats. That's what we do in SSS and our non-spinnaker division is large. But those are local races.

The problems with racing non-spinnaker to Hawaii are 1) it's boring and 2) you're likely to miss the dinner and a bunch of the Tree times. It takes too much money, time and effort to race the SHTP if you're very likely to score a FAD.

In my opinion. (Not trying to be controversial either.)

 

[WBChristie]

No FAD's in this years SHTP. How did the Pac cuppers do? <grin>

 

[BobJ]

There was only one - AERIAGNIE, who finished the morning after the deadline. I don't think Pacific Cup uses the "FAD" designation though.

 

[peter00]

"The problems with racing non-spinnaker to Hawaii are 1) it's boring and 2) you're likely to miss the dinner and a bunch of the Tree times. It takes too much money, time and effort to race the SHTP if you're very likely to score a FAD."

I'm not sure about that since I didn't use a spinnaker and was first to finish by five hours or so.
The ratings make no sense to me at all. I've raged about this before and since I'm not racing again I will rant again without anyone questioning my motives.
Scaramouche NW PHRF.....114
NorCal PHRF...... 80 (and that's after an appeal that gave me some relief.)
If you look at the down wind ratings adjustment by SSS you will see that I gained 2 seconds.
I was the only one in the class who determined before hand not to use a spinnaker (after fairly extensive discussions with and advice from Jim Q)
I don't have the information in front of me but everyone else in the class gained a minimum of 10 seconds (Lightspeed) which I believe was the second smallest DW gain.
So from my point of view the PHRF first kicked the shit out of me by 25% and then the SSS did it again.
For those who weren't there, it would have been impossible for me to have had a better time in Kauai. First to finish was a totally undeserved bonus that I plan to dine out on for years. The two boats in the class that corrected out ahead of me are both good friends and both tried a lot harder than me. Having said that, if I was the type of person that gave a shit, having the General beat me by 16 minutes after 14 days of racing would have argued quite strongly for a non spinnaker rating in my mind.
I would like to add that my spinnaker pole weighs between 60 and 70 lbs. that and my 2oz assym spinnaker are just too much for this 66 yr old. Also my experience with spinnakers is not sufficient that I could fly one on Scaramouche and be considered a 'prudent mariner'.
Is there anything more boring than an old fart pissing and moaning about his rating?

 

[BobJ]

After the 2010 SHTP, I re-ran the results using NorCal PHRF's then-new Downwind Ratings instead of the SHTP Ratings we use (which are the old PCR's). Sometime I'll try that with this year's results to see how much difference it would make - or maybe Brian can do it.

It used to be that if you didn't list any spinnaker dimensions on your rating application, your DW rating would be the same as your regular PHRF rating. This could be a big advantage since DW ratings are on average 30 sec/mile faster than regular ratings. I figured I could not declare a spinnaker, use the biggest twins possible and clean up on corrected time. That loophole may have gone away by now (or it will after the PHRF guys read this).

I busted enough autopilot parts in the 2008 race that I had to sail through the best part of the trades (and finish) without a spinnaker. My opinion that "racing the SHTP non-spinnaker is boring" is based on that experience. However, it's MUCH easier to fly a spinnaker on my boat than it is on yours.

And yes, pissing and moaning about ratings is a well-developed occupation - I've done my share of it.

 

[WBChristie]

Where exactly did the "downwind ratings" come from? What is the formula that is used to calculate them?
FYI, there is no difference in the NCPHRF rating for a boat that does not carry spinnakers - I know because when I applied for my cert both ways, it was the same. Did you have anything to do with closing the loophole Bobj? <smile>

 

[Travieso]

See sections VI and VII of http://www.yra.org/PHRF/docs/ncphrf_rules_and_guidelines.pdf. That makes it clear that the use of spinnakers is assumed on the ratings and that there is no credit for carrying a small or no spinnaker. So from a 'rating' perspective I don't see you have been treated unfairly.

I think your only recourse would be to be put in a different division, but as the only boat sailing non-spinnaker it would be hard to justify to the race organizers.

Cheers

 

[BobJ]

Where exactly did the "downwind ratings" come from? What is the formula that is used to calculate them?

From the horse's mouth: http://www.yra.org/PHRF/docs/DownwindPHRF.pdf

FYI, there is no difference in the NCPHRF rating for a boat that does not carry spinnakers - I know because when I applied for my cert both ways, it was the same.

Right, regular PHRF ratings are normally not adjusted for choosing to not carry a spinnaker. However, Downwind PHRF ratings are, or more accurately, you aren't given a separate Downwind rating unless you carry a spinnaker. WylieCat 30's are an exception probably because most of them race against spinnaker boats.

Here is the current database of certificate holders sorted by boat type: http://www.yra.org/PHRF/docs/current_phrf_certs_type.pdf If you scroll down to the Alerion Express 28's on the second page, you'll see that DITZY has spinnaker dimensions listed and also has a Downwind rating. The next two AE28's, DREAM and SOBRANTE, don't have spinnakers and so they don't have DW ratings. Then if you scroll to near the end of the list and look at the WylieCats, you'll see that most don't have spinnakers but DO have DW ratings.

Now I'll stir the pot a bit: Should the SHTP have a non-spinnaker division like our other SSS races? Would you be more likely to race to Hanalei if you could compete in a non-spinnaker division (boring though it may be)?

 

[Gamayun]

Now I'll stir the pot a bit: Should the SHTP have a non-spinnaker division like our other SSS races? Would you be more likely to race to Hanalei if you could compete in a non-spinnaker division (boring though it may be)?

Yes. But that's because I'm still a wuss about flying a spinnaker by myself and Kynntana is a scream to sail down wind, wing on wing. Ask Daniel. He was chasing us with spinnaker up coming back from the Lightship at over 12 knots.

 

[WBChristie]

So, the formula is a secret.

According to the ratings, my boat (A Westsail 32) rates faster than a Ranger 33 and various other boats with about half the wetted surface and 1/4 of the weight. Interesting.

 

[BobJ]

The fact that Downwind ratings are derived from a secret formula is the main reason why the 2010 SHTP skippers voted unanimously to not use them. The old PCR's (what we now use as "SHTP Ratings") are easily calculated with tools like this: http://sfbaysss.net/archive-shtp-websites/transpac2008/documents/2008_transpac_pcr_calculatorr.xls

Regarding your comparison to the Ranger 33 SM, your boat has over a foot more waterline and much more sail area (a third more just in the kite). NorCal PHRF's Downwind rating formula is sensitive to waterplane length and especially to downwind sail area.

 

[WBChristie]

Regarding your comparison to the Ranger 33 SM, your boat has over a foot more waterline and much more sail area (a third more just in the kite). NorCal PHRF's Downwind rating formula is sensitive to waterplane length and especially to downwind sail area.

You forgot displacement and wetted surface:

Downwind performance is strongly affected by length, downwind sail area, displacement, and
wetted surface. Wetted surface is approximated subjectively using the boat’s underwater profile.


Why were downwind ratings implemented?

• Tighter, more fair race results than previous systems. (The downwind ratings replace
PCR adjustments given in paragraph VII of the NCPHRF Rules and Guidelines).
• To allow adjustment of regular PHRF ratings for high speed downwind boats so they can
be more competitive on windward-leeward courses.
• Reversing the decline of heavy boat entries in downwind races such as the Delta Ditch
Run. These ratings should give heavier boats a chance at the podium once again.
• Better “first guess” ratings for boats new to the area.

I smell a rat.

 

[BobJ]

You're making me glad I don't do ratings. As you probably know, The Westsail 32 SARABAND won the Pacific Cup overall and was on track to do the same in the SHTP when his boom broke.

 

[WBChristie]

If the formula wasn't a secret, this wouldn't be an issue. Or might be