Poles and Water Rules

[solosailormike]

some of the rules are in conflict with the ISAF-RRS AND USSA but that will be worked out as time goes by but can someone give a better explaination of couple of the rules.

example 3.01
one or more spinnaker pole may be used for headsails BUT NOT for setting spinnaker.

or 4.36

thanks

 

[sleddog]

some of the rules are in conflict with the ISAF-RRS AND USSA but that will be worked out as time goes by but can someone give a better explaination of couple of the rules.

example 3.01
one or more spinnaker pole may be used for headsails BUT NOT for setting spinnaker.

or 4.36

3.01: 2 poles may be used for twin jibs. Only one pole may be used on spinnaker. Spinnakers are not jibs, and PHRF measures them differently.

4.36: You either must carry an AIS receiver, or radar w/ perimeter alarm.

 

[cafemontaigne]

stacking

Skip,

Thanks for the writeup you did for the WX/tactics seminar. It's definitely the most detailed of its kind that I've seen so far.

In it you mention stacking sails on the weather rail. Is the race committee cool with that? Is it legal under RRS 51? What about fore and aft trim?

I have a very tender boat, and I've been wondering how to pack things so I don't drag the transom on the way out of the bay, or bury the bow on the surf into Hanalei, so questions about moving weight around are pretty interesting to me.

Adrian
Idefix

 

[Critter]

While we're on the subject, how about rule 4.11 on water supply? At the risk of being accused again by Dr. Lou of mental masturbation, I believe that as written this rule doesn't support its own intent.

The rule states: "... no more than half of which may be carried in any one container."

If "which" refers to the 21 gallon minimum, this means that you can't put more than 10.5 gallons in any one container, even a 50 gallon tank if you have it.

If "which" refers to the total on board, it means that you can only have two water containers and they must carry equal amounts. Think about it.

I presume that the intent of the rule is that if one container loses all its water, at least half the minimum supply should remain. One way of stating this is:

"Water containers, securely installed, capable of holding a total of at least 21 gallons of fresh water in two or more separate containers. If any one such container is excluded from the total, the remaining container(s) shall contain at least 10.5 gallons."

Right? That's how I'm planning my tankage anyway.
Max

 

[cafemontaigne]

water tanks

My interpretation of that sentence was that "which" refers to "total". So you can't have more than half your water in one tank.

I don't see why you'd be restricted to two equal containers under that interpretation, though. I have four 7-gallon jugs, for a total of 28 gallons, with no more than half (14 gallons) in a single container, and altogether my tanks can carry more than 21 gallons.

I can see a scenario where this doesn't make much sense: if my boat has a single, fixed 20-gallon tank, and I bring along two 7-gallon jugs. I have 34 gallons, and if I lose one I'm left with more than 10.5 gallons, but more than half of the total is in one tank, so I don't meet the rule. Take 3 gallons capacity off of my fixed tank and I'm good to go.

In practice, I'd look at worst-case scenarios and re-evaluate those on a daily basis: if my tanks are plumbed together, are the tanks isolated so I can't lose all my water? Do I keep the valves closed? What happens if I lose my fullest tank at the start? What about 400 miles out of Hanalei?

Adrian
Idefix

 

[sleddog]

Skip,

In it you mention stacking sails on the weather rail. Is the race committee cool with that? Is it legal under RRS 51? What about fore and aft trim?

Adrian
Idefix

Thanks, Adrian,

I do not speak for the SHTP RC, and would of course yield to their interpretation.

Historically, "stacking" for Transpacs has been an interesting and often controversial practice for decades. Entrants often started Transpacific Races with noticeable angles of heel from water tankage, bunks, etc. One SC-70 even had their interior accommodations and cabinetry built in to starboard.

The Los Angeles-Hono Transpac got tired of the question, and adopted their own Rule 1.3, which in part says "movement of sails not in use while racing is allowed."

RRS 51 says sails must be "properly stowed."

"Properly stowed," if not further defined, is a grey area open to differing interpretations. To me, "properly stowed" means secured against shifting and readily accessible.

Offshore, unlike batteries, canned goods, anchor and chain etc. stowed below, sails can only be used on deck. It is a time honored practice of stowing sails on deck, ready for use. On WILDFLOWER, the trysail and storm staysail stayed bent on, the next headsail(s) on deck to windward ready to go, and I steered comfortably sitting on two spinnaker bags.

Good Luck to you!

 

[Critter]

I don't see why you'd be restricted to two equal containers under that interpretation, though. I have four 7-gallon jugs, for a total of 28 gallons, with no more than half (14 gallons) in a single container, and altogether my tanks can carry more than 21 gallons.

You're right, Adrian. Logic failure in that part of my post.

But I think my main tank is about 20 gallons. I intend to fill it, plus carry a 7 gallon jug and a couple of 2.5 gallon containers. If "which" refers to the total, I won't be legal under the rule as written. I could only be legal by underfilling my main tank. I don't think this is the RC's intent!

 

[solosailormike]

While we're on the subject, how about rule 4.11 on water supply? At the risk of being accused again by Dr. Lou of mental masturbation, I believe that as written this rule doesn't support its own intent.

The rule states: "... no more than half of which may be carried in any one container."

If "which" refers to the 21 gallon minimum, this means that you can't put more than 10.5 gallons in any one container, even a 50 gallon tank if you have it.

If "which" refers to the total on board, it means that you can only have two water containers and they must carry equal amounts. Think about it.

I presume that the intent of the rule is that if one container loses all its water, at least half the minimum supply should remain. One way of stating this is:

"Water containers, securely installed, capable of holding a total of at least 21 gallons of fresh water in two or more separate containers. If any one such container is excluded from the total, the remaining container(s) shall contain at least 10.5 gallons."

Right? That's how I'm planning my tankage anyway.

Max

my intent was to carry 20 gallon in separate continers with a water maker as my primary sourse, but the way I read it , there is no way to even connect my two tanks for filling.

 

[solosailormike]

radar

3.01: 2 poles may be used for twin jibs. Only one pole may be used on spinnaker. Spinnakers are not jibs, and PHRF measures them differently.

4.36: You either must carry an AIS receiver, or radar w/ perimeter alarm.

could you send me a list of manufactures who make a radar with perimeter alarms that would fit on a 24 sailboat with solar panels hooked up for the lights and radio, etc. How many boats carried radar on the last event?

 

[solosailormike]

twins

3.01: 2 poles may be used for twin jibs. Only one pole may be used on spinnaker. Spinnakers are not jibs, and PHRF measures them differently.

4.36: You either must carry an AIS receiver, or radar w/ perimeter alarm.

The reason for the question is when you have twins running, the boat just steers herself on what ever course set automaticly. Hiscock used this method as did Mcclain on Trekka and it does not wear-tear like furling does on the bolt, its quick to change. The wording, and the personal use of a whisker pole verses spinnaker pole is misleading. I guess I am alone on this one issue but I have always found a chute over whelming in rolling seas.

 

[sleddog]

could you send me a list of manufactures who make a radar with perimeter alarms that would fit on a 24 sailboat with solar panels hooked up for the lights and radio, etc. How many boats carried radar on the last event?

Furuno, RayMarine, Garmin, JRC, Sitex, and others make small boat radars. All modern radars have perimeter alarms.

Compared to AIS, radars for small boats are expensive, complex to install, and power hungry. AIS gives pretty much the same info (alerts to commercial shipping over 65 feet LOA in the vicinity, distance off, course, and speed.)

12 boats carried radar in '08 SHTP. On my boat (27',) I used AIS 100% of the time, and radar less than 10%. And that 10% was to alert for approaching squalls, not shipping.

 

[jakmang]

As for radar... AIS would probably suit you better. Mine is a transciever and does not use much power. Requires a VHF antenna.

-jak

 

[BobJ]

Greetings from the R/C! I came in here looking for something else and stumbled across this. I meant to write a reply long ago - sorry!

I don't know about during the race but I know on the trip home, two boats have suffered the loss of their water. In one case it was a plumbing issue and in the other, a hole wore through the larger of their plastic tanks. Most of their water went into the bilge and they had to return to Hanalei. So it has happened. I would make sure your plastic tanks are not wedged in against something that is hard or sharp and that they are strapped down so they can't fall against something or have the cap knocked off, etc.

The wording of the rule may not be as precise as it could be but logic should prevail. Carry at least 21 gallons of fresh water and make sure that if you lost a tankful you would still have enough, with rationing, to get to your destination. Mike, connecting two tanks for filling compromises the intent of the rule. Here on land, well-rested and careful, you know to switch the valves properly, but out there goofy things can and do happen.

Regarding the two poles - some boats with symmetric spinnakers will set a second pole while gybing and then remove the first. Among other things, this rule is a reminder that you have to remove the first pole after the gybe.