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Race Committee Energy Budget

P

peter00

New member
After my regulation 3 glasses of wine I am now able to whine about issues I had with the last race.
1) It seems somehow uncorinthian to speak about money but it would be good if the race committee could actually set out a budget for new racers. If there are going to be trackers, what is the cost? I got a lot of surprises from the RC in 2012 and it might help new racers if some of these things were spelled out. My entry, now that I'm retired, will almost entirely be determined by cost. Any surprises that can be eliminated would be appreciated.
2)If you have raced before, exactly what documents does the RC require? Resubmit pictures of alternate steering? Or what?
3)In the last race the RC got very coy about informing racers about the tropical depression that was approaching the islands while we were at sea. I'm sure most of us have been watching the mini's crossing Biscay and how responsive their RC was to a deteriorating situation so let's get it established that the RC can distribute severe weather info to the fleet without invoking "outside assistance". Kaui's history has involved serious hurricanes and anyone who has seen Hanalei Bay in all it's glory(as I have) will know what I'm talking about.
4)Lastly, many of us take the opportunity to 'speak" to passing ships but I have never overheard anyone mention to the ship that there are a couple of dozen other small sailboats who are not maintaining a proper watch in the area. Every time I mentioned it to a Matson ship the OOW was really glad to get the information.
Peter SV Scaramouche
PS I hesitate to say any of the above as I'm pretty much out of touch with other racers but...it's what I think
 
peter00 said:
After my regulation 3 glasses of wine I am now able to whine about issues I had with the last race.
1) It seems somehow uncorinthian to speak about money but it would be good if the race committee could actually set out a budget for new racers. If there are going to be trackers, what is the cost? I got a lot of surprises from the RC in 2012 and it might help new racers if some of these things were spelled out. My entry, now that I'm retired, will almost entirely be determined by cost. Any surprises that can be eliminated would be appreciated.
2)If you have raced before, exactly what documents does the RC require? Resubmit pictures of alternate steering? Or what?
3)In the last race the RC got very coy about informing racers about the tropical depression that was approaching the islands while we were at sea. I'm sure most of us have been watching the mini's crossing Biscay and how responsive their RC was to a deteriorating situation so let's get it established that the RC can distribute severe weather info to the fleet without invoking "outside assistance". Kaui's history has involved serious hurricanes and anyone who has seen Hanalei Bay in all it's glory(as I have) will know what I'm talking about.
4)Lastly, many of us take the opportunity to 'speak" to passing ships but I have never overheard anyone mention to the ship that there are a couple of dozen other small sailboats who are not maintaining a proper watch in the area. Every time I mentioned it to a Matson ship the OOW was really glad to get the information.
Peter SV Scaramouche
PS I hesitate to say any of the above as I'm pretty much out of touch with other racers but...it's what I think
Click to expand...

Hi Peter, Brian (Red Sky) here.
Trackers will be included in the established entry price if used. This is still in negotiation with the vendor, but close to closing.

I like the thought about weather updates if required. This happened in one Pacific Cup I was participating in. Finally the RC Comm boat established a schedule to give a fleet wide weather synopsis. In that case the issue was lack of wind with more lack of wind to follow.

The speaking to ships is a great idea. I know I had a few conversations with invisible naval vessels and they asked about other vessels in the area, that they must have been watching by some means. ONe quizzed me on the size of my radar reflector, probably calibrating target acquisition radar ?

I think we should check with the USCG and see if the event gets posted in the notice to Mariners.
 
Hi there,

Thanks for your notes, Peter. I'm glad to know you are racing again!

From shoreside, I thought everyone spoke with ships whenever there was a chance and mentioned that to the fleet. Of course, weather would not be discussed. Why wouldn't the presence of a fleet be mentioned?

Brian, VTS includes the Start in the daily traffic reports. I had good communication with VTS with the LongPac, and know that they followed every member of the fleet offshore. I wouldn't expect anything beyond that. Besides, the PacCup is the general traffic area.

The weather events. Hmmm. Sailors choose their electronics. Isn't that part of the race? Some want every gasp of breeze, others sail with what they have. Depressions are part of the choice to enter. Worth some discussion.

As far as surprises, the gold brick surprise in cost won't happen. SSS will make that happen, as in the past. Some readers remember the trackers in ... 08? 10?


Lucie Mewes
 
Hi Lucie and Peter,
As I indicated, in 2000, or 1998, the exact scenario mentioned by Peter unfolded during the Pac Cup. Many people had sailed into the Pacific High, or it sailed into them depending on your point of view. There were a few very vocal racers who were demanding a weather predicition as they were convinced they would perish in the light winds, eventually running out of water and having resort to cannibalism. It led to some very argumentative check ins as some were making the "outside assistance" point. The brain trust decided to have one of the boats broadcast a weather prediction that all could hear during the happy hour, as I recall. Someone in the fleet was a meteorologist and, as I recall, did a focused prediction a few times over a few days.

It might make sense to consider a provision in the rules that allows for committee weather advisories if a significant weather event were to arise. Given not everyone has SSB I am not sure how this would be distributed, sat phone txt ?

Something to consider.

BB
 
brianb said:
There were a few very vocal racers who were demanding a weather predicition
Click to expand...

I feel pretty strongly that the RC should not be in the meterology business. At best, they will be passing on forecasts from NOAA or commercial services, which racers should be able to get if they need them using their own resources, be it SSB Weather FAX, NavTex, SSB Voice forecast, SailDocs/GRIBs over satphone, looking up into the sky, or whatever. And all the forecasts in the world won't make the weather be any better than it is going to be. See RRS Rule 4.
 
My point was only that, if there is a significant weather situation, the RC should not feel constrained by any rules concerning outside assistance and should act solely out of safety concerns. If anyone is following the mini's, the precedent is well established. To say that "all the forecasts in the world won't make the weather any better" is just not true. I can't tell you how many times in my career I've altered course due to weather, sometimes more successfully than others. If a serious depression was approaching Kauai I would not hesitate to turn north (and I'm probably in one of the more seaworthy vessels). The situation we don't want is storm or hurricane force winds developing over Kauai and have a bunch of Moore 24's that are set up for a down wind slide to Kauai carrying on when they shouldn't because the competitive juices are flowing. Normally the sail from SF to Hawaii is not exactly an 'epic of deprivation' and the boats are prepared accordingly. The weather patterns are changing so we can talk about this now or after a bunch of people are dead. Returning to Canada in June of this year and not very far north of the route the SHTP takes I was caught between a 972 low and a 1025 high. Nobody had ever heard of a 972 low in June in middle latitude NP (or at least I never did). I don't know enough about race management to comment intelligently but if the RC announced that the race was abandoned due to weather concerns and no finishes would be recorded then all the young tough guys could stop thinking about winning and start thinking about survival. But what do I know....
 
We have to look no further than the Mini Transat now underway. They delayed for about two weeks for weather, then launched the boats, only to have to abandon the course a couple days later and bail out into various ports in the Bay of Biscay. A few boats were damaged and I believe one lost, but all souls are in great shape. The call on stopping the race was the RC's.
 
Some brief history on how the SHTP got over-sensitized to this "weather update=outside assistance" issue:

For the 2006 race, a couple skippers set up an arrangement with the late Don Anderson ("Summer Passage") to provide weather updates to the fleet via SSB. The information included the position of one or more pressure gradients within the High, so the fleet could tell if it was moving. It did, and it indicated the need for a dive south 3-4 days into the race. Some of the skippers didn't pick up on this and those who did ended up helping them - all rather innocently. It became awkward and the skippers decided to ask Don to stop the broadcasts.

My view is that warning the fleet of possibly dangerous weather changes is entirely appropriate. Telling them what the High is doing is not.
 
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There is a big difference between a RC abandonment/postponement due to weather, and providing forecast or observation data to the fleet enroute. I agree with Bob, the 2006 situation was inappropriate, while the Mini RC acted correctly. If the overall situation is truly dire, the RC should abandon the race, then do everything it can to help boats still on the course. Or if skippers feel they need RC or other assistance, they should retire themselves, then ask for help.
 
Yes, agree with Bob and Pogen....We just need to make sure we have the option to abandon a race, or otherwise modify it, even modify a finish line. Honestly I have not checked the NOR, so maybe all the hooks are there.

I would disagree slightly with broadcasting the position of the high. This is public already through several sources. The committee announcing the same data that is on SSB-WWVH (out of Hawaii) and on the NOAA weather fax's and GRIB data is not inside info, or outside assistance. What would be is providing routing data. This is rather academic, we are only going to find us in this situation if some big low spins up off Mexico and heads for Hawaii.

EDIT: It appears that neither the NOR or the RRC explicitly gives the power of the RC to alter the course. Interesting, I would vote to add that as well as explicitly state the authority to abandon the race or delay the start.
 
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brianb said:
It appears that neither the NOR or the RRC explicitly gives the power of the RC to alter the course. Interesting, I would vote to add that as well as explicitly state the authority to abandon the race or delay the start.
Click to expand...

All of that is in the RRS, adopted for this race in 5.1 of the NOR. See RRS 32.1 (b) and (e).
 
Wow, great discussion. The National Weather Service defines the hurricane season in the eastern pacific as commencing May 15th, and in the Central Pacific (140 W - 180 W long) as beginning June 1st. Given that climate change is rapidly altering oceanographic wearher patterns, I am glad to see this discussion about terminating the race if extreme weather blew up around Hawaii. A couple of days advance warning would be needed to put about northward a sufficient distance to stay out of harms way. Who knows, the fleet could continue on after the storm dies out. The boats gotta go somewhere!
 
Daniel came through the PacCup fleet a few years back. As it played out, the racers were well on their way, with not much choice other than keep an eye on daily reports. Only one racer, a tail end Charley, felt anything. Eventful, yes. Life threatening, no.

Communication does imply that the fleet has a good plan. And a ComBoat who has a good SSB set-up.

Lucie
 
Daniel

Daniel came through the PacCup fleet a few years back. As it played out, the racers were well on their way, with not much choice other than keep an eye on daily reports. Only one racer, a tail end Charley, felt anything. Eventful, yes. Life threatening, no.

Communication does imply that the fleet has a good plan. And a ComBoat who has a good SSB set-up.

Lucie
 
On item 3... weather...
There has not been a really significant weather event between California and Hawaii in June or July in the last 50 years. So worrying about getting whether info during the race (for safety reasons) is counting angels on the head of a pin. The worst weather you are likely to see is the first few days - which you'll know lots about before the start gun. That said... there is a hurricane that runs through Hawaii once every 20 years or so... in August or September... so after you finish, if you are late leaving the islands, yes you might have to keep an eye out for "significant weather". Though even then, its the last few hundred miles into the west coast that are much much more likely to be an issue. Yes a tropical depression (not hurricane) will at times (every few races) spin up across the race path... but its more a problem of it creating no wind - shutting down the trade winds - then too much wind. If you are okay in the frequent gale off the west coast, you'll be fine if a tropical depression happens to swing by during the race.
 
Jim Q is of course confused. This is not the "angels dancing on the head of a pin" thread, that is over on the "can there be two mountains without an intervening valley" thread. I happily defer to Jim's vastly greater knowledge of the history of North Pacific weather systems. But....the whole point of the climate change discussion is that we can no longer accurately predict future weather trends by the historical record or, as far as I can tell, by anything else. When I lived and sailed in the Caribbean lo these many years ago, it was common knowledge that after the last full moon in Sept. you were safe from hurricanes. Now they have them in Dec. Further, last year all the latest weather models predicted more and stronger Atlantic hurricanes. They turned out to be less in number and milder. All I wanted to do by starting this thread was to initiate discussion on the part of the RC so more possibilities were anticipated.
Most everything else Jim said I would agree with...
 
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