Reefs percentages for mainsail

[winefood]

I am ordering a new mainsail and would like advice on what percentages the 2 reefs should be for bay and coastal sailing. I mostly race and cruise single or double handed and find my Hawkfarm is easily overpowered even after making all sail flattening adjustments with one or 2 reefs and the number 4 up. I've only used the third reef a few times. With the new mainsail, I am going with a full PHRF roach for light air days.

Presently, I have a blown out off shore Dacron main with 3 reef points.
When applying lots of back stay, cunningham, eased traveler with a cranked down mainsheet, it gets flat as a board, although draft is fairly far aft. I am hoping the new mains' forward draft will help us sail flatter.

Thanks for your input - see you on the water.

Larry

 

[BobJ]

Hi Larry,

I have the same handling issues on my J/92 - fractional rig with a big main that causes me to get overpowered quickly. Once you run out of depowering controls, larger reefs start looking good.

My current racing main has the first reef at 16% (the prior mains had it at 11%) and the second reef is at 30% (prior mains were at 24%). I don't have a third reef in this sail - my delivery main has a third reef at 42%.

My prior racing main has a full PHRF roach but for singlehanding it isn't that great. It hung up badly on the backstay and the extra area was of little use for our kind of sailing. I always sail with some backstay pressure (the mast has no prebend) so a batten flicker wouldn't be that effective on my boat.

Also, resist the temptation of full battens (IMO). You lose the ability to beat with a speed bubble, i.e. it's harder to "sail on the battens" in heavy air. The top batten and maybe the second could be full length.

My 2 cents' worth. Be sure to talk w/Synthia ("Eyrie") at Santa Cruz sails - she's a sailmaker with a Hawkfarm and does a lot of shorthanded racing.

 

[winefood]

thanks

Thanks for the good advice. I am going with 2+2 battens because sailing with a speed bubble is standard procedure for us when overpowered. I have been in contact with Synthia and she has been very generous and witty with expert advice, although I didn't ask her about reef %.

Thanks again,

Larry

 

[tiger beetle]

On Beetle the mainsail reef points are set to remove 25% of the mainsail surface area per reef, and there are three reefs in the main.

I figured that if I was going to go through the work of reefing, I wanted the reef to make a substantial difference! Note that this is on a masthead heavy boat, not a fractional light boat. I would expect that you would have more depowering controls on a fractional rig.

I would definitely check in with Synthia and see what she thinks of the reefing setup on Eyrie.

- rob/beetle

 

[Eyrie]

I think my first reef is around 15-18%, 2nd is maybe 25-30%, and the 3rd is a bit over 40%.

Synthia/Eyrie

 

[winefood]

reefing

Thanks again for your help. Its really helpful to know how other sailors have set up sister ships for similar pursuits. Presently my reef points look to be 12, 24 and 36%. After reading how others have set up their reef points, I am thinking of 16 and 36 as reef points. But should reef point graduations be in even increments such 12 and 24 or 16 and 32? Is there any problem in placing reefs at 16 and 36 or 18 and 40? I have sailed across the slot with the 4 up, 2 reefs and a bubble in the main and the rail in the water. I didn't feel like going to the 3rd reef so I just hung off, dumping the main in gusts. Although I think DreamKeeper sails flatter with the new 3 then the old 4. Speaking of 4s, since mine is less effective then the 3, does anyone have an opinion of appropriate sail material for a 4? Should it be just really heavy Dacron or are laminates better? If so, what laminate would be best for a sail that doesn't get that much use, but when you need it, you really need it?

 

[BobJ]

My main is attached to the mast with slugs. Since they are evenly spaced starting at the headboard, their locations determine the exact spot the reefs can be. Also the batten locations and angles will have some bearing on the decision. I would give your sailmaker approximate percentages up the luff and let them design the details to work together.

It sounds like you aren't planning on a third reef and that's probably fine for around here - I rarely use my second reef since the first reef is so large. But in case you opt for a third, you want it to be just over 40% of the luff length to avoid also having to carry a trys'l for some of the local ocean races. Rules . . .

The new main will improve your upwind sailing dramatically, based on what you said about your old one.

Speaking of rules and regarding the #4, many owners use it to meet local racing requirements to carry a "heavy air jib." These requirements include an alternative means to attach it to the stay (usually grommets every 2-3 feet), no laminates and no battens. There are also area limitations but they are more generous than you probably want the sail to be.

Lob over to you 'Zia . . .

 

[Eyrie]

Reef placements typically start at 12.5% and 25%. Now, that's measured up the luff, not sail area reduction. Then, as Bob mentioned, the 3rd reef is at 40% (or more) to meet the rule for an alternate to a storm trys'l. Bob is also right that the exact placement is then adjusted to work with batten placement (big conflict with 4 battens and 3rd reef location) and luff hardware spacing. And, as has already been mentioned here, adjusted to your particular boat, local weather conditions, and your sailing needs.

I also agree with Bob, build your #4 with bomb proof Dacron and build to meet the storm jib guild lines.

Seems you SSS boyz have been taking notes at my sail selection seminars.

Synthia/Eyrie

 

[winefood]

reefing

Thanks again, for the great info. In addition to the #4, I do have a brand new storm jib and tri-sail on board. I actually used the storm jib once already on a particularly windy day on the bay. It does seem pretty bomb proof. Should I forget getting a #4 and just use the storm jib when its blowing too hard for #3?
So from what I am reading, it seems that exact % of reef placement is predicated on batten and slug positions. So the exact % will be determined by the sail maker as close to owners wishes as possible. Since I have a tri-sail, should i not worry about avoiding the over 40% rule and locate my second reef around 34 to 36%? Maybe not a good idea - I haven't ever done it, but putting in a third reef seems to be a hell of a lot easier then removing the main and bending on a tri-sail in heavy weather. I have this vision of a mainsail flying sideways...

 

[Culebra]

If I already had a trysail and an independent track to bend it on, I'd prefer that. But I don't have an independent track or a trysail (on my Olson 34), so I put a 3rd reef in. Because you're building a new sail, you have a great advantage. You can work with the sailmaker to get the batten and sail slide locations in optimal locations for 3 reefs. You can even adjust the number of battens to accomplish this (I went with 5 on my new main, for this very reason). Much harder to put a 3rd reef in the right place on an old sail that wasn't built with that in mind. If you carry your trysail in the ocean races, your 3rd reef can be anywhere you want it (or not at all), but I'd still consider having the 3rd reef located where it could also satisfy the rules, for the simple reason you mentioned... I can't imagine removing the main in 40 kts of breeze. The only time I've been in conditions approaching that, I didn't even want to be on deck.

By the way, a third reef makes for a tall stack above the gooseneck. Avoid long dogbones in the reef cringles. All of them should be the same length, and quite short. Otherwise your sail slides will tear out of the sail when your reefing line pulls the foot tight. Your sailmaker should be able to perfectly match the locations of the battens, sail slides and cringles to allow you to pull a slab of sail down to the horn, over the flaked stack of sail, keeping the tack positioned right at the horn at the perfect offset from the mast.

Paul/Culebra

 

[winefood]

Dog Bones and Strong tracks

Hi Paul,
Thanks for so much great information. I am going to visit DreamKeeper and review the things you have told me about. (I never noted that my third reef caused a" tall stack", but never thought about it. It sounds like a Strong Track to go with my try-sail might be a good addition to the mast and be preferable over a third reef, since I am mostly an in the Bay sailor.
You have shared so many fine points of how a third reef, battens and dog bones should function. My present mainsail functions perfectly, and does everything I ask it too. Until now, I have taken the skill of the sail maker for granted. I hope my new one works as well and makes my boat go like hell.
Thanks again,

Larry

 

[BobJ]

I'll say it: Please don't put all those fasteners in a Hawkfarm mast for a sail you will probably never use (trys'l).

If a second deep reef was adequate on my boat in this year's LongPac, it will be adequate for your stated use. Ragtime! is 30' but 200# lighter than DreamKeeper and has 400# less ballast. "E" is three feet longer.

The key to all this is to read the weather reports.

IMHO.

 

[winefood]

OK

Thanks for the specs on Ragtime. I didn't know Ragtime was only 30'. I read the blogs from the SHTP and sometimes it almost felt like being there. Knowing specs on individual boats gives one more of a feel of what day to day sailing on Ragtime is like. Cool name by the way.
I looked up the Specs for a J92S. Do you think the bulb at the bottom of the keel makes your boat less tender than a Hawkfarm because of more effective mechanical effort?
Is it just esthetics or a waste money that drives your concern about, putting "all those fasteners in a Hawkfarm mast"?
Anyway, if your second reef is only at 30%, how did you qualify for the offshore rules? Was it because you also carried your delivery main? I am thinking of just going with 16% and 34% for the new main.

Also, any thoughts on not replacing my 4 and using the storm jib when it blows too hard for the #3? The storm jib seems like too much sail reduction from the #3 to me.

 

[BobJ]

Do you think the bulb at the bottom of the keel makes your boat less tender than a Hawkfarm because of more effective mechanical effort?

At enough heel angle, yes. Initial stability (up to 20 degrees) is probably similar.

Is it just esthetics or a waste of money that drives your concern about putting "all those fasteners in a Hawkfarm mast"?

Neither. Every screw is an entry point for corrosion. I think it would substantially weaken the mast over time. I see trys'l tracks on larger cruising boats where there's ample room alongside the primary track/slot, and the mast has more wall thickness to handle the extra holes and fasteners.

Anyway, if your second reef is only at 30%, how did you qualify for the offshore rules? Was it because you also carried your delivery main?

For the races that require it, I carry a trys'l with slugs (probably what you have).

I am thinking of just going with 16% and 34% for the new main.

FWIW that's what I would do, for your stated use.

Also, any thoughts on not replacing my 4 and using the storm jib when it blows too hard for the #3? The storm jib seems like too much sail reduction from the #3 to me.

I'd do the main for now (since you said it's blown out) and go sail the boat.