Rudder Post and Stuffing Box

[Philpott]

Has anyone ever serviced this parts of the boat anatomy? When she was in the yard, Dura Mater had a propeller shaft replaced, but I didn't address the Rudder Post. When I asked a friend he said, "Oh, don't get into that! That can be REALLY expensive." And, of course I believe that it can be really expensive, but it is sort of important, too, right? My boat is a Cal 2-27. If anyone plans on addressing his/her rudder shaft, can I come watch? Can it be done at the dock or does it have to be on land? Thanks!

 

[BobJ]

When you had the prop shaft replaced they would have (should have) serviced/repacked the shaft's stuffing box. If it's the conventional type (not dripless), there should be a drop of water coming from it every few seconds. If so all should be well, although I might check with the yard to make sure they did that work.

The rudder post and its bearings are a whole 'nuther matter. Does the tiller/rudder turn easily and smoothly? Have you dropped the rudder to inspect the shaft while the boat's been hauled out? If not, I'd do that before you venture very far offshore. I had the lower rudder bearing replaced before the 2006 SHTP and now the upper bearing is loose, so that's on the list for my next haul-out. If you can wait until October you can have a look.

 

[Philpott]

I will wait until October unless I get a better offer. Thanks, Bob. I remember the hefty cost of your lower rudder bearing.

 

[BobJ]

You read the story about my J/33 and its rudder problems, and that WAS expensive. The lower bearing for Rags was about $100 - we were able to have a new one turned at a local machine shop. It was the haul-out and labor to replace it that was expensive (it's a boat).

 

[Critter]

Jackie, I was able to drop my old bent rudder post with the boat in the water. I just tied a line to it outside the hull and pushed it out from the cockpit. But most other jobs (including installing a rudder, unless you hire a strong and extraordinarily dextrous diver) would require a haulout.

My partner and I machined new delrin rudder bushings for our boat several years ago because it had quite a lot of play. Making them ourselves it wasn't expensive, but it took several trips back and forth to the boatyard to get them to press in nicely. Fiberglass tubes (at least ours) tend not to be very uniform in size and roundness.

When my new rudder is done and I haul out to install it, you can come and have a look. This'll be at San Francisco Boat Works. Last time I was there, there was a pile of old rudders with corroded posts that would be edifying (or alarming) to examine. Did you see photos of my old rudder post? It didn't look bad at the area that was exposed in the water, but it cracked and bent inside the blade. Stainless steel corrodes worst where it's covered up and starved of oxygen. Nasty business.

 

[Philpott]

Thank you, Max. I'd love to come watch.

 

[brianb]

Dear DuraMater Pilot,
I had a rudder fail on my Olson 34 about 500 miles east of Hawaii. Back up rudder worked well. As mentioned in Max's post, I also was shown a pile of dead rudders, bent or broken, at Advanced Composites, where my new rudder was fabricated. It was alarming to see 15 or so 1970's to 1980's design boat rudders piled up with failed internal stainless structures. My boat was a 1987 vessel, never sailed in salt water until I obtained it in 1998. This may sound a little nuts, but if it were me, I would bore some one inch inspection holes into the rudder along the line of the post. Especially where the post is pinched down and welded to the internal structure (typical of that era rudder) and look for corrosion along any welds or crimped/pressed connections. Then if all looks good seal it up with foam and have it glassed and fared.

As mentioned by Bob, another area where I had issues was bearing loading. The rudder would get very hard to steer in a blow on a reach. The rudder bearing, a delrin sleeve, was binding on the shaft. New bearings, or the roller bearing variety, made a huge difference.

You might consider calling Foss Foam in Irvine/Orange county and asking for their experience. There is a good chance they made these rudders.

Or you can just happily proceed to Hawaii and make sure you have a great emergency rudder solution.

I know the effort to inspect sounds tough. Good luck.

Brian

 

[Philpott]

Dear BB, do you have photos of your emergency rudder?

 

[Wylieguy]

Jackie,
You should (don't mean to harp) have dropped the rudder when the boat was out of the water to check the shaft and look at the bearings - visual inspection. Brian's advice about cutting in to look at the web is also a very good one. If it's a typical rudder of the era, the shaft is stainless. The webbing is also stainless and has been welded to the shaft, either by folding it around the shaft, or just welded on - sort of spot welded. Salt water inside the rudder, limited (or no) oxygen + stainless is a battery. Those piles of old rudders are testimony to this.

Furthermore, I think you should address the issue of emergency steering sooner than later. I think there's a thread somewhere on this SSS website and also the PacCup website. An emergency rudder needs to be able to steer the boat with no more effort on your part than the regular rudder. If you're seriously thinking Hawaii, that might mean for a week or more - and you can't stay awake that long! The expense of designing and building an adequate ER is an investment well worth it. I think it's serious even for SSS/OYRA offshore races - that's why mine is tucked under the cockpit right now.

Pat

 

[Philpott]

In 1997 a rebuilt Universal 2-12 engine was installed on Dura Mater. Noted is "repack shaft log with drip-free". I've read about "dripless" stuffing boxes. Then, in 2008, a local yard "removed hose clamps (4) on shaft log and cleaned shaft log corrosion". Can anyone guess what this means (you are not being graded here)?

 

[brianb]

Uhhhh......maybe, it ain't pretty. I could shoot a few. It kind of looks like a big surfboard with a cassette. Oh, think of the foiling centerboard on the AC72's, yeah, it kind of looks like that !

 

[brianb]

In 1997 a rebuilt Universal 2-12 engine was installed on Dura Mater. Noted is "repack shaft log with drip-free". I've read about "dripless" stuffing boxes. Then, in 2008, a local yard "removed hose clamps (4) on shaft log and cleaned shaft log corrosion". Can anyone guess what this means (you are not being graded here)?

I just had my drip less replaced on Red Sky. The drip less depends on two precise surfaces to form a seal (I believe it is called a DSS). I believe those surfaces are precisely machined aluminum, one spins with the motor shaft, the other is stationary. The rubber boot provides compression of the two surfaces as well as forming the shaft tube seal. So, if the surface of these two precise plates get corroded they would tend to leak a bit. My drip less was pretty worn as it was ten years old with a lot of miles. The surfaces were still not leaking but they were getting thin so I had it all replaced while the boat was high and dry (1 of 3 yard trips in 8 months - SHTP + yard error + my stupidity = $$'s). My guess is the corrosion cleaned up is those two mating surfaces. If the drip-less was installed in 1997 and serviced in 2008 it is way past the manufacturers service life, which I believe it 10 years. That said, it might be fine if the engine doesn't have a lot of time on it. The thing to do is measure the thickness of those mating plates and then check with a yard or the manuf. to see if they are in spec. I think the yard guys might just say, "replace", given the age. I seem to recall the cost was about $300 to redo mine.

BB

 

[Philpott]

Thanks, Brian. I have read some strong opinions about dripless, and would not have chosen it myself. Too many imponderables. I drove over to the yard yesterday and the yard manager,Karl, assured me that he checked my rudder post when he replaced the cutlass bearing. While that is reassuring, I do want to know what to look for, which is why I'm going to sail over to visit Ed Ruszels on Flicka on Saturday in brickyard Cove. If anyone else is in the vicinity, come on over and share info. I'm bringing pound cake. I also need to figure out spinnaker rigging. Bring what ya got or come for the cake.

 

[glennp]

Interesting comments about stainless rudders failing. Iam not sure a yard guy can adequately 'check' the rudder for offshore work unless they physically go into the rudder itself, or do an xray or ultrasound of some sort. stainless dissolves through anaerobic corrosion inside the rudder material where you cant see it or mechanically beat on it. sometimes in less than a year from new, if the part gets no oxygen. once the boat starts working in a sea way, the stainless weakened by corrosion gets subjected to overwhelming torsional forces and general banging around until it breaks off wherever the corrosion has reduced the material - usually hidden away inside where you cant see it, then the good part of th shaft flails away at the hull until falling off and/or worst case, breaching the hull below the water line area near the rudder shaft. Bronze on the other hand lasts forever - well 45 years in my boat. I pulled the rudder and replaced the shaft as a pre caution several years ago, and found the old shaft was shinny and new - no corrosion or stress lines whatsoever, 45 years after being laid up in the factory.

I would like to ask-> what is the emergency rudder 'Cassette' others have mentioned earlier in this thread?? some kind of pivot device i am guessing??? thanks!

 

[Wylieguy]

Glen, The cassette is sort of an external centerboard slot that's mounted to the transom and swivels. The rudder blade (foil) is inserted and shoved down until it locks/stops. As you know, it's almost impossible to hold a rudder blade down while trying to get the pintles connected. Attaching (some folks leave it mounted) a cassette is easier because there's nothing dragging in the water. Then lowering the foil into the cassette is lots easier. On my boat steering is via high tech line hooked to the cassette and tiller using turning blocks on the transom.

My belief is that the foil should represent at least 2/3s of the area as the original rudder and be nearly as deep. I also lean toward a "fatter" foil for more "bite" in the water. I figure that with the ER deployed I'm in the "get home safe" mode rather than beat Greg Nelson mode (which I can't do anyway!).

I also carry a 2" dowel long enough to shove the original rudder stock down and out of the boat. If the original rudder flops around or the stock bends instead of breaking, I don't need a "Bismark" rudder steering me around in circles while the I fight the ER trying to go straight.