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Surprise!'s Mizzen Poll

Should Surprise! keep her mizzen?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 9 81.8%

  • Put lawn chairs back there.

    Votes: 2 18.2%
  • Total voters
    11
  • Poll closed .
BobJ

BobJ

Alerion 38 "Surprise!"
Sailing gurus say that Surprise!'s mizzen is pretty useless. Upwind it lives in the bad air from the main, especially when the traveler is pulled up a bit, and when it's full it's only adding to the weather helm. There are non-racing benefits, the major one being that it adds to the boat's coolness.

But a couple friends have suggested I pull it out and put lawn chairs back there. (For this poll we'll assume that option is figurative.)

Here's your chance to weigh in on the decision.
.
 
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It's unstayed so it *should* be pretty easy. But there's some corrosion under there, stainless bolts going through aluminum castings, etc. I have a hunch that once I get it out I'll be slow to put it back.

So I'm doing the easier thing first - I'm taking a poll!
 
I’d suggest that you really haven’t had enough experience with the mizzen yet to decide. I’ve never owned a yawl (or ketch), but I’ve had boats that had features that were new to me or that I didn’t fully understand. I’ve learned to live with them until they reveal more about themselves. Carl designed that boat to be a yawl. I think you just need more time to get to know her.

Tom
 
Bob, not sure about the original building intent on sail balance, but it seems like a larger main (maybe more roach or square top) could makeup the lost sail area with less hassle. Not sure how it would effect weather/lee helm. Also if you are more inclined to cruising great place for dinghy, and if you are really wild how about a hot tub?
 
They built eight of this version and two of them were sloops. The boom was a bit longer on the sloops but everything else was the same.

The hot tub would be flash - but I'm thinking about how to do an e-rudder with all that back there.
 
You mean like an internal fold down or push down erudder? That would be really cool and keep the stern clean. I guess you could make some kind of a water trunk like some of the small sailboat outboard boxes. How much room do you have back there?
 
The lazarette is huge - I could rent it out separately on Air B&B. But I don't want a lot of weight back there nor do I want a big hole in the bottom of the boat.

What I meant by "all that back there" is the mizzen boom, etc. which overhang the stern. I could probably install an e-rudder but that stuff would be in the way.
 
BobJ said:
What I meant by "all that back there" is the mizzen boom, etc. which overhang the stern. I could probably install an e-rudder but that stuff would be in the way.
Click to expand...

OR - it could make a handy crane to dangle said e-rudder from while mounting it.
 
I'm a big fan of broken sail plans, after spending a couple weeks on a ketch between San Diego and Magdalena Bay thirty years ago next month.
I also agree with the folks who have already said you haven't had her long enough to really know yet.
Foresail and mizzen is nice in big air, while keeping you centered on the boat dealing with just the main alone.
 
I've tried sailing "jib and jigger" with it in about 20 knots. That sail plan works on a ketch (where the mizzen is larger) but this mizzen is tiny and the boat felt out of balance.

The mizzen makes some sense for cruising. It becomes slightly effective off the wind (and cruisers try hard to avoid sailing to weather). Other advantages are using it as a riding sail when anchored, and its mast would be an out-of-the-way place for a radar dome.

For the way I'll use the boat - racing around solo on SF Bay and the coast - I see no real benefits. If it goes away at least you'll know why.

However the massive voting is running 80% towards keeping it!
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For racing on the Bay, not sure if there's any point. However, for racing off the wind in a straight line for a long time, I bet there's very MUCH a point.

https://www.classicboat.co.uk/practical-advice/seamanship/how-dorade-won-the-2013-transpac-an-in-depth-look/

DORADE, a boat which one might consider to be more than middlin' successful as a racer.

Transpac2013_Dorade_2_sg.jpeg


THat's a little dinky mizzen. I've never spent time on a boat with a mizzen, I'd sure love to hear from someone who'se raced a boat like Dorade, extensively.
 
My vote is to keep it until you after you've sailed it for a while and really, really want it gone. So that was a sorta "yes."
 
AlanH said:
That's a little dinky mizzen.
Click to expand...

That little mizzen is all about optimizing her rating while maximizing downwind speed. That’s confirmed in the article you linked.

“Though Dorade’s downwind profile looked amazingly similar to images of her sailing past Oahu’s Diamond Head in 1936, the striking difference was her new mizzen sail. The handkerchief-sized sail that went only two-thirds up the mizzen, allowed the boat to keep her yawl rating and ability to fly staysails, but the reduced area allowed clean wind to reach the staysails.”

Me thinks SURPRISE! needs at least a mizzen staysail, if not a spinnaker.

Tom
 
Dazzler said:
That little mizzen is all about optimizing her rating while maximizing downwind speed. That’s confirmed in the article you linked.

“... allowed the boat to keep her yawl rating and ability to fly staysails[/B], but the reduced area allowed clean wind to reach the staysails”
Tom
Click to expand...

So what was her rating compared to the other boats’? Is Surprise!’s rating significantly advantageous enough as a yawl compared to the boats against which she would sail today?
 
Jackie,
My comments were directly related to DORADE and why she carried that small (odd looking?) mizzen for the TransPac. Yacht designers have always looked for ways to gain any advantage available under the rating rule applicable at that time. The yawl rig under the CCA rule offered the advantage of unrated sail area in the form of mizzen staysails. This is why yawls became popular on the East coast where many of the distance races are predominantly reaching.

As for SURPRISE!, I suspect that if Bob removed the mizzenmast the rating would be changed to reflect less sail area. Bob’s basic question is: For how he intends to use the boat, is the mizzenmast (and associated sail) helping or not.

Tom
 
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