Tacking in boats with mid-cockpit traveller?

[255grizzly]

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone had some advice regarding single-handed tacking in boats that were designed to have the driver sit behind the traveller and the jib trimmer sit in front. I.e., boats with a) the traveller running across the center of the cockpit with the tiller completely behind the traveller and b) the jib winches in front of the traveller.

This is a tough situation for a single hander because you need to be in two places at once!!!

I have an Olson 25. I have tried both sitting in front of the traveller and sitting behind it. Sitting in front works nicely in terms of having immediate access to the jib sheets. However, it can be tricky in terms of reaching the tiller (you have to pull your arm quickly around the mainsheet). Of course, using the autopilot is an option, but it just doesn't tack as well as I do (if I do everything correctly.) Also, it just feels odd to sail with the mainsheet behind me, even if it's only a little (I know some boats do this, but I think they are mostly cruising/daysailing.)

I have also tried sitting behind the traveller. This is great in terms of tiller control (e.g., putting it between your knees and holding at ~20 degrees on the new tack to make sure that you get the jib in on the new side.) But it only really works in light air when I can hold the jib sheets by hand. When it's windy, I need to really concentrate on getting the sheets in.

Cross sheeting helps some, though it is still tricky to get the jib cleated in because the cleat is positioned far away on the coaming where a jib trimmer would normally be seated. (I have self tailers, but find them best for long tacks -- they are hard to fine tune and they don't come on or off as quickly as just running through a cleat.)

I'm curious how others deal with this.

Do you sit in front or back of the traveller? Anything special about the technique?
Do you use the autopilot?
Have you changed your deck layout (e.g., move winches back)?
Other?

Thanks for any advice you have!

Tom
Rock On

P.S. My master plan calls for opening the cockpit and/or transom a la the modified Moore 24's, moving the traveller back behind the driving position, installing a barney post, etc., etc. But it won't be such a masterful plan if my kids don't go to college, so we'll just have to wait and see about that one.

 

[255grizzly]

Btw, if you look at Mini 6.5's, they have a really cool deck layout. Traveller behind the tiller. Jib winches just in front of the tiller. I gotta think that's the bomb. Tiller with your legs, a hand for each jib sheet, duck a little, and around you go.

Here's a picture:

 

[Philpott]

Btw, if you look at Mini 6.5's, they have a really cool deck layout. Traveller behind the tiller. Jib winches just in front of the tiller. I gotta think that's the bomb. Tiller with your legs, a hand for each jib sheet, duck a little, and around you go.

When I was looking at boats pre-Dura Mater I looked at the Olson 25s. They are a wonderful boat and just the length I was looking for, except that I couldn't figure out how to singlehand one, either. Given your success in the 2015 Farallones I thought you had that issue worked out. I remember asking someone how she would singlehand her Olson 25. She looked at me blankly and said, "I wouldn't." Huh.

 

[BobJ]

My traveler is on the cockpit sole (it's not a sit-in cockpit w/seats) and the winches are in reach. I can steer and tack the #3 (in light conditions) but not the genoa. For tacks I put the boat on autopilot, go to the front of the cockpit and push the button(s) and run the sheets. Then I go back and hand-steer.

If you have a ST2000 I have a (wired) remote you could have cheap. (For either of you, cheap is zero.) You could velcro it to the back of the cabin trunk and you'd be in tall cotton. The cord is long enough you could even drive while sitting on the head, and wouldn't THAT be special?

 

[sleddog]

With the jibsheet, mainsheet, and tiller all steering components on my 27 footer, I found having the traveler ~10" in front of the tiller was good position for simultaneously being able to release the mainsheet with the front hand and bear off with the tiller with the aft hand.

The jib winches were another 10" in front of the traveler, in a position where they were also in reach from the helming station when sitting behind the traveler, as well as being able to be cross sheeted in front of the traveler, or easily handled by a crew person also sitting in front of the traveler.

Tacking with my 117% was duck cake. From a windward sitting position I would push the tiller to leeward and release the old jib sheet as I crossed the cockpit. With the tail of the new jib sheet led in front of the traveler, I would tail most of the jib in by hand (3 wraps on the winch.) Then depending on the situation I would grind the last few inches. If grinding on the new lee side winch, the handle would already be in place before tacking. Alternatively, I would throw two wraps on the weather winch, and with the jib sheet cross sheeted, grind on the weather side. Settling in, both jib and mainsheet were accessible from my steering station, just aft of the traveler.

An assist was provided by having PVC rollers, 5' long, on the V1's, which let the jib sheets and clew whisk around the mast area with little friction or delay.

I did not use winches on my working staysail, rather a two-part jibsheet was employed.

 

[Daydreamer]

I feel your pain Ton, literally!

I have the same setup and my current routine is improving.

Sit in front of the traveller, hand steer, let the traveller drop, hand sheet and cleat the jib, set the A/P and start trimming and coming up.

My cockpit is shallow and I do most of the work on my knees.

I have thought about moving the traveller foreword and the winches back to make a nice spot between the tiller and mainsheet.

 

[255grizzly]

When I was looking at boats pre-Dura Mater I looked at the Olson 25s. They are a wonderful boat and just the length I was looking for, except that I couldn't figure out how to singlehand one, either. Given your success in the 2015 Farallones I thought you had that issue worked out. I remember asking someone how she would singlehand her Olson 25. She looked at me blankly and said, "I wouldn't." Huh.

Well, the nice thing about the farallones? Nice long tacks The relative distance lost on a bad tack was less important in that race. I really noticed the difference when I did the mid winters this year. Now I am trying to fix the problems -- and probably making them worse at the moment! So it goes.

I can certainly imagine better cockpits for single handing than the Olson 25 has (my knees would really like some more room.) And it's been a fairly steep learning curve for me (more sail controls than I knew what to do with at first!) But it has such a great combination of stiffness upwind with occasional planing downwind - I think in ways it's a really good boat to learn to singlehand on.

 

[Foolish]

Tom, if you take a look at my Singlehanded Tips book (elsewhere on the SFBaySSS site), you'll see how I've got the system set up on my Olson 30, which has the traveler just in front of the tiller like yours. I think this system is absolutely wonderful and gives me the fastest tacks possible.

I've got self tailing winches set up just in front of the traveler. But the winches aim down towards the opposite side of the boat. So my active sheet comes from the leeward side of the boat, across the cockpit just in front of the traveler. (This means that when I step over the traveler, I am also stepping over the sheet. So it is never in my way.) I leave the other sheet coming down from the windward side of the boat with 1/2 wrap around the leeward winch. (I won't go into the fact that I only have one - continuous sheet. That just makes it complicated. It is not necessary for this to work.)

So when I tack I unwrap the sheet (except for 1/2 wrap) from the winch that is right next to where I am sitting. Then I move across the cockpit controlling the tiller with my knees as I'm pulling on the new sheet, that is on the new windward side of the boat. After pulling it in as far as I can, I put two quick wraps around the winch and I sit down and grab the tiller. Then, if necessary, I use the winch handle to pull in a bit more. (This is usually not necessary with my jib, but necessary with a genoa.)

Because of this method I never have to go down to the leeward side to make any adjustments to the sheet. It is right there next to me on the winch on the windward side of the boat. So I can make tiny adjustments all day long with no problem.

By the way, I find that I can tack by hand MUCH MUCH better than using the autopilot. I can make adjustments to my turn depending on wind speed, how fast the sail is moving over and if it gets caught on anything. If the wind is very strong I tack a little short to make sure I get the sheet in all the way, then I turn down a bit further to proper position. If the wind is light I tack a little long so that I can get up to full speed as quickly as possible. I do all of this with my knees on the tiller. Works great and an autopilot will never let you make these kind of decisions as you are going through the tack itself.

 

[todd22123]

The Tiller Clutch, recommended to me by solosailor, helps me. The tiller can be pushed to leeward, fixed there, jib tacked, tiller adjusted quickly if turning too much, jib cranked.

 

[255grizzly]

My traveler is on the cockpit sole (it's not a sit-in cockpit w/seats) and the winches are in reach. I can steer and tack the #3 (in light conditions) but not the genoa. For tacks I put the boat on autopilot, go to the front of the cockpit and push the button(s) and run the sheets. Then I go back and hand-steer.

If you have a ST2000 I have a (wired) remote you could have cheap. (For either of you, cheap is zero.) You could velcro it to the back of the cabin trunk and you'd be in tall cotton. The cord is long enough you could even drive while sitting on the head, and wouldn't THAT be special?

Thanks Bob, I would need to install a head for that to work! (RO is rather Spartan.). Plus I have the newer evo autopilot (not sure it was worth it.)

 

[255grizzly]

Tack off

Thanks for all the great suggestions here, both deck layout and technique. I plan to do a "tack off" this week (you know, kinda like a bake off) and see what works. If you see a red boat outside berkeley marina sailing kinda confusedly back and forth, well yeah, that would be me.

Will let you know how it goes.

 

[255grizzly]

Okay, so I devoted two sails last week to tacking (more or less). Fun. First time in a long while I have been able to go out twice in one week. I think it helped to increase the frequency. I even did some dockside practice afterwards. The first time I went out by myself, the second time I went out with a friend and coach (Steve Sarsfield) who gave me some valuable input. I tried tacking A) with my autopilot, B) behind the traveller, and C) in front of the traveller. C worked best. Here’s what I learned:

My autopilot cannot tack as well as I do. If it's windy, it's good to know it's there. But it's really slow and seems to work only some of the time (occasionally doesn't finish the tack and/or tacks halfway). I think some anchor chain may have been interfering with the compass, but I haven't had time to confirm that. Plus, I've been having some battery issues. So at the moment, I'm not counting on it for tacks (or anything for that matter!) Round the Rocks this weekend could be interesting.

Tacking behind the traveller on the Olson 25 was problematic. First and foremost, if I’m standing with the tiller between my legs, the end of the boom is a few inches from my face. One small mistake, and I’ve got a broken nose. I tried a variety of other techniques to address this -- including sitting down on the tiller -- but frankly, it’s just very unnerving to see the boom swing so closely to my face. In addition, even if I were to eliminate that issue, I would need to move my winches - they are too far forward to reach easily. But I’m not too excited about doing that b/c they would then be located in the best seat for driving the boat. I really appreciate Foolish/Andrew’s comments above, but I have to think that the Olson 30 has 1-2’ more of cockpit, which makes a huge difference.

So I am left sitting in front of the traveller, which is what worked best for me. I used a bungee cord tiller holder, like Andrew describes in his book. I think this could work with a tiller clutch as well. Importantly, I learned to focus on the steering first, the sail trim second. Also, to take things slowly! Here were the steps I worked out:

1. Prep the lazy sheet (2-3 wraps around the winch and put the winch handle on it -- I use one winch handle so I know which winch is about to become active)
2. Prep the active sheet (make sure line is free to run) and sit near the active sheet
3. Start the turn by moving the tiller bungee leeward ~8" (this amount will change depending upon the conditions, less length required if lighter winds.)
4. Release the active sheet as soon as sail starts to loose gas, making sure to remove all wraps (no backwinding needed in moderate / heavy winds)
5. Move to the new side
6. Trim the jib/genoa fast, aiming to get it inside the lifelines - it doesn’t have to be perfect at this point, just under control
7. If the jib foot is stuck on the lifelines, pinch up a bit and pull in
8. Get on course, keeping eyes forward
9. Fine tune the jib
10. Prep for the new lazy sheets for the next tack

We'll see how this works under racing conditions this weekend. I may try the tiller clutch in the future - will let you know. Thanks for all the great input above!

Tom
Rock On

 

[todd22123]

I think this may work better than bungee on tiller. It can be controlled with one hand, and one can move the tiller just a bit quickly in the middle of the tack to adjust turn rate.

Todd

 

[255grizzly]

FYI, I got a tiller clutch.

It's the bomb! Much quicker and more precise than a line wrapped around the tiller. It's the difference between VHS and DVD.

Note: it's not any better downwind for me in chop, but upwind, it's great. Highly recommended.

 

[Philpott]

FYI, I got a tiller clutch. It's the bomb! Much quicker and more precise than a line wrapped around the tiller. It's the difference between VHS and DVD. Note: it's not any better downwind for me in chop, but upwind, it's great. Highly recommended.

That's great, Tom! We want you to be happy. Now come on out and sail with us.

Aren't we about due for another "Take Alcatraz" race? Todd Olsen, current record holder, waddya think? And Greg Ashby? Where's Nightmare?

Bob Johnston said he'll figure the results for us, even if he participates. Course, he's been winning all the races lately, so for sure we want to race against him, too.

Anyone else? Any singlehander can race. Every singlehander is invited.

Start at the BYC buoy off the Berkeley seawall at an agreed upon day and time, race around Alcatraz a la Fiasco (to port or starboard), race back. Take your own time. Meet up and lie.

 

[BobJ]

Huh?

 

[Philpott]

Huh?

Oh, gosh. Did I forget to break down those paragraphs? See above.

DM is going out today. Maybe to Clipper Cove for lunch. I love that place. Wonder if it will allow boats smaller than 50 feet to visit in the future?

 

[255grizzly]

If the single handed fleet for Silver Eagle fails to materialize Jackie, how about we take Alcatraz on and see if either of us can steal the record back?

 

[Philpott]

If the single handed fleet for Silver Eagle fails to materialize Jackie, how about we take Alcatraz on and see if either of us can steal the record back?

Absolutely. This time let's coordinate with each other. And since Todd prolly isn't doing the Transpac, let's persuade him to try to defend his record. And Greg Anyone else? I'll start the email trail now ...