TBF: "Fourth" Mark?

[bobwalden]

"In addition, buoy R “2” (Q R, approx.. 4/10 nm SW of the Richmond Long Wharf) is a mark of the course and must be left to the East. "

I realize the purpose of this--to keep us away from the long wharf, and to simplify the process of describing that restriction and enforcing it, compared to the "fence" approach used in previous races. But what is the advantage of making R2 a mark, rather than simply making it a restriction, such as lil' Alcatraz, south tower, etc?

And a few questions, since we're doing it this way this year:

1) "...must be left to the East." Does this mean I must remain West of an imaginary line passing directly North-South and through R2?

2) if the answer to #1 is "yes"...are you mad? And are we talking true or magnetic compass?

3) Did you really mean "...must not pass between R2 and the Richmond shoreline.", which would be more in keeping with other restriction area descriptions?

4) If I tack right up to the long wharf (breaking the USCG 100 yard restriction in the process), but then tack away, around R2, leaving it to the East, and then proceed, have I committed a fault?

Making it a mark of the course opens the question of passing vs rounding marks, but does not keep people away from the long wharf. It also inelegantly adds a 4th mark to a 3-mark race. I like the idea of simplifying the description of the restricted zone at the long wharf, but making this a mark causes confusion and does nothing to keep us away from the long wharf.

I would suggest just adding it to the standing SI list of restrictions, saying:
b. Boats shall not pass between the following buoys or landmarks and the nearest point on the specified shore.
i. buoy R “2” (Q R, approx.. 4/10 nm SW of the Richmond Long Wharf) -- and the Richmond shore

 

[sleddog]

Sorry, but I don't see the issue to which you refer.

R"2" must be left to the East, which means passing R "2" on its Westerly side. There's no imaginary lines, magnetic or true compass, or passing or rounding questions. Where you sail before and after passing R"2" is your own business.

Though well intentioned, the suggestion of making a restricted area between R"2" and the Richmond Shore would likely create havoc. That is because the "Richmond Shore" is several miles long, and the shore's nearest point to R"2" is up north at the base of the Richmond Bridge, near Pt. Castro.

My 2 cents. I'm just 3BF competitor, not representing SSS. As Bone would say, "don't be early, don't be late, and don't pass inside R"2"

 

[BobJ]

^ What he said.

I didn't want it to be a restricted area, I wanted boats to be able to "unwind" if they missed it. In answer to your #4, no, you could do that.

Besides, as Sled suggests, R "2" is too far offshore to work like Castro Rocks buoy, Little Alcatraz, etc.

Last night, Paul Kamen asked if R "2" is considered a "Passing Mark" or a "Rounding Mark." I told him I didn't know - I haven't heard the term "Passing Mark" before. Does anyone know the difference?

 

[sleddog]

"Mark, mark," said the harelip dog. Getting in a semantics discussion with PK may require extra aspirin. The RRS, "Definitions," page 7, is clear: Mark: An object the sailing instructions require a boat to leave on a specified side.

 

[bobwalden]

Is the purpose of R2 being a mark to keep us away from the long wharf? Because it doesn't do that. Right?

 

[BobJ]

As we said last night, if you want to sail all the way up in there and all the way back out to R "2" you can do that, but whatever current benefit you're seeking won't be worth the extra distance you'll sail.

By the way, we made this change for the Vallejo 1-2 and it appeared to work as intended.

 

[bobwalden]

well, I guess we'll see. I suspect some folks will want to go in there, or might just wind up there. Thanks Bob!

 

[todd22123]

For those who are interested, there is some information in Appeal 103 at this link. http://ussailing.uberflip.com/i/100938/123 It is actually a SF Bay Case.

A mark of the course must actually be rounded, even if one has to do a 360 to get around it.

I understand that "is a mark of the course and must be left to the East." means that it must just be left to the East. Probably could replace "is a mark of the course and must be left to the East." with just "must be left to the East."

Todd

 

[Wylieguy]

I admit to being a little biased on the Richmond Long Wharf "exclusion zone" since I was in on its creation, but I think the current attempt to keep boats outside the Homeland Security Zone will probably result in more problems than it attempts to solve. The exclusion zone used by YRA, and SSS in the past, is the result of issues arising from boats intruding into that Department of Homeland Security Zone in large numbers. Some might remember the Richmond Police Boat out with its hailer? Or the armed guards on the southern end of the pier? After the resulting Coast Guard meeting, it was decided to use "2" and "CR" to create a "zone" because the buoys were there. If everyone has to stay out, any negative sailing is shared by those same "everyones." Setting temporary marks to create a zone closer in near the Long Wharf was not going to be allowed.

The limits of the "Long Wharf Safety Zone" are given in CFS 33. 165.1197 (1). (By the way, the limits for the "Conoco-Phillips" wharf Security Zone in San Pablo Bay are also listed - do we want to rouse a sleeping issue for the Vallejo race?)

It's true that boats have strayed into the "zone" on races, sometimes intentionally and sometimes out of ignorance. But for the most part boats have honored the "zone" and complaints from the CG (part of Homeland Security nowadays) have gone away. Here are a few thoughts on changing from a Restricted Zone using "2" and "CR":

1. There have always been "3" Marks on the 3-Bridge. I think that's part of its uniqueness. Adding a "Mark" takes away from that simplicity. It's now the "3-Bridge + 1 Fiasco.

2. Bob J. says part of the reasoning behind making "2" a "Mark" is so you can unwind. SSS Standing Instruction #14 specifically says you can't unwind from a list of geographic points, so while making "2" a "Mark" sort of makes it different than, say, Anita Rock, I think it obscures things. Why should you be able to "unwind" from some, but not all?

3. As Todd points out, there is the Appeal 103, based on a similar "Mark" situation in a CYC Mid-Winter race a few years ago. You don't leave a "Mark" to the East, you "round" a Mark. Paul K's question is important here. I might point out that Paul is on the YRA Appeals Committee and is very familiar with Appeal 103. I'm familiar with it, too, since I did "buttonhook" the mark and as a result of the ruling advanced my place in the race.

4. As Bob W. points out, boats will go in there, given the right combination of current and wind. Will they stay the required 100 yards off not just the pier, but the tankers alongside? Bob J's thinking that it will be too much of "hike" just doesn't float. It may have worked for one Vallejo 1-2, but I think only because conditions were right.

-- Pat Broderick

5.

 

[sleddog]

Appeal 103 (thanks, Todd) does not apply. The appeal was a different situation and was denied. In that case, the CYC Sailing Instructions were not clear.

In this case the 3BF Sailing Instructions are clear and explicitly state there are three marks to be rounded and one (R"2") to be passed (left to the east.)

If you want to sail inside R"2", and intrude into a Security Zone that's your choice. (SF Bay Security Zones are routinely infringed by passing within 100 yards of tankers, fuel barges, cruise ships, and within 25 yards of the Bay and GG bridge pylons.)

SSS doesn't encourage sailing into Security Zones. But can't be police. If sailing inside R"2" for whatever reason makes sense to you, just come back out and pass on the required side of R"2" to properly sail the course.

 

[dhusselman]

Rob,

My understanding of the difference between a rounding mark and a passing mark.
1. Rounding Mark - Needs to be rounded as part of the race course. When passing at other times, it can be ignored.
2. Passing Mark - Always need to be passed the same way during the whole race, independent of where one is in the sequence of the race course.

^ What he said.

I didn't want it to be a restricted area, I wanted boats to be able to "unwind" if they missed it. In answer to your #4, no, you could do that.

Besides, as Sled suggests, R "2" is too far offshore to work like Castro Rocks buoy, Little Alcatraz, etc.

Last night, Paul Kamen asked if R "2" is considered a "Passing Mark" or a "Rounding Mark." I told him I didn't know - I haven't heard the term "Passing Mark" before. Does anyone know the difference?

 

[BobJ]

A big factor (maybe the biggest) in the change was all the whining from 3BF skippers. They wanted the R/C to somehow "police" the Long Wharf restricted area. With my glasses on I can sorta see Blunt from the race deck but sorry, I can't see whether a Moore 24 is "over the fence" up at the Long Wharf. "Why don't you anchor a boat up there?" (My response, "Are you offering yours?") etc. Plus nobody wants to protest. A mark is easier for skippers to self-police.

At the meeting on Wednesday, I pointed out the difference between a charted, government restricted area and those restricted areas called out in our standing or race-specific Sailing Instructions. In my opinion we should keep the list of the latter as short as possible. We want the race to be fun and simple - but if we start getting calls from the constabulatory, we'll ask them for sail numbers and help them track you down. Other than that, we have a race to run.

 

[BobJ]

Heads up: According to VTS, The cruise ship AURORA is Inbound to Pier 35, scheduled to dock on Saturday at 1030, all 886 feet of her. Right now nothing shows as Outbound during the race. We'll update via VHF Ch. 69 on Saturday morning.

As presented Wednesday night: The wind forecast from the highest levels - Jessa at Carl's Jr. in Alameda:

"I dunno, but I don't think there will be much wind."

 

[Now&Zen]

I can't say I am a Sailing Rules expert by any means. But if we look at the TBF in general it doesn't really fit the way racing rules and marks were intended. No where in the SIs for TBF does it state that you must leave a mark on a port or starboard side? What rules allow you to cross the start and finish line in both directions? I think that we need to realize that the TBF is a unique race and some of the instructions are unique.
The race committee doesn't and shouldn't have an instruction regarding legally restricted areas around the course. Finding ways to keep the infractions down at areas of high likelihood of infractions (Richmond Long Wharf) help the club out from a 'PR' perspective.
I think Bob's solution works for the most part. Those folks who sail into the Long Wharf are breaking the law. They shouldn't do it and the Race Committee is making a reasonable attempt at a simple solution to help keep folks out of there.
Tony B.

 

[Kirwan]

Rob,

My understanding of the difference between a rounding mark and a passing mark.
1. Rounding Mark - Needs to be rounded as part of the race course. When passing at other times, it can be ignored.
2. Passing Mark - Always need to be passed the same way during the whole race, independent of where one is in the sequence of the race course.

Another way to look at it is the 'string theory': An imaginary string left by the boat, when pulled tight must go around all 'rounding marks'. It does not need to touch a 'passing mark', but must be on the correct side of that mark. We've had this discussion in San Diego, where the course includes some marks to keep the fleet away from the main channel; if it were a rounding mark, you'd have to go buttonhook the thing, which nobody does.

I never made it that far so it was a moot point, but the way it was set up sounds ok to me.