Tracking the race ? Discussion ?

[brianb]

Hi,

I had heard a rumor that a box might be added to allow tracking of the entrants. Does someone have a status update ? Also, the trackers owned by the club, do they still work and would they work at least for part of the distance ?

Regards,

Brian Boschma

 

[robtryon]

Hi all, I have been contacting all skippers and have not got ahold of everyone, so here is the scoop. All boats on the start line will have Yellowbrick trackers aboard. The trackers we own will not work for a Hawaii race, and the last thing we need, with a big fleet and everyone watching so closely, is for a racer to go silent. Unfortunately, when I worked up the budget for the race (and lowered the entry fee), it didn't include trackers. Most of you probably don't know that the Singlehanded TransPac is financially separate from the SSS. Entry and sponsor fees have always supported the entire race. The trackers we're getting are $300 per boat and I'm asking the skippers to pick that up. I've had three very generous skippers who are so pro-tracker that they've offered to, between them, cover any shortfall from skippers who couldn't (or wouldn't) pay for the trackers, but I don't think it's fair to put the onus on these generous folks.

Please go to www.yellowbrick-tracking.com to check out exactly what these things will be doing for us. It's a pretty awesome service. They'll be doing all of the web work for the online tracking page, so we won't have to have volunteers staying up all hours collating all the check-in data. Please note that check-in via SSB or sat phone will still be required.

We all know change is in the wind in regards to the Coast Guard's approval of ocean events. Being proactive to get these trackers will help them feel more comfortable in approving our permit, plus it has the added bonus of allowing friends and family to track the fleet more easily. Our group has always had a really good relationship with the Coast Guard because we've had good communication with them, and having trackers in our comm plan will go a long way to making them feel comfortable.

If you have any questions or concerns that you'd like to discuss with me privately, give me a call at 503-490-3305.

 

[brianb]

Trackers and impact on on the water tactics.

Hello All,

I have a few concerns about tracker data availability on deck. In my mind it is a huge advantage to have near real time data of your competitions moves. For those with satellite service they potentially have this visibility, at great expense. This advantage will not be available to all, or at least not this boat. A 24 hour update has been the norm, or possibly a 12 hour update. Unless the rules already state this, I would like to propose that access to vessel position data by competitors be limited to the period at check in time. If this is not acceptable than I would like to propose that tracker data will not be publicly available via the internet. Simply that the skipper of the each vessel can allow access to a list of email addresses, the USCG, and the RC. No other public users would have access to the data. The RC should publish a public update once or at most twice per day.

With regards to cost and safety: Cost - the trackers are cool and add to the public impression of the race, however the cost is prohibitive. For me it means bailing on the use of a Sat Phone as it is about the same cost.

Safety: This is getting out of hand. The layers of redundancy are adding more and more expense and are not necessary. The USCG has stated in every recent meeting , pre and post LSC disaster, that the EPIRB is the correct device. The combination of EPRIB and PLB enhances the picture further. Now we are adding yet another layer of safety at the price of more than a PLB. What action will the USCG take when a tracker fails ? None. They will wait for EPIRB confirmation of a real problem.

Please consider this and amend the rules accordingly.

Regards,

Brian Boschma
s/v redsky

Hi all, I have been contacting all skippers and have not got ahold of everyone, so here is the scoop. All boats on the start line will have Yellowbrick trackers aboard. The trackers we own will not work for a Hawaii race, and the last thing we need, with a big fleet and everyone watching so closely, is for a racer to go silent. Unfortunately, when I worked up the budget for the race (and lowered the entry fee), it didn't include trackers. Most of you probably don't know that the Singlehanded TransPac is financially separate from the SSS. Entry and sponsor fees have always supported the entire race. The trackers we're getting are $300 per boat and I'm asking the skippers to pick that up. I've had three very generous skippers who are so pro-tracker that they've offered to, between them, cover any shortfall from skippers who couldn't (or wouldn't) pay for the trackers, but I don't think it's fair to put the onus on these generous folks.

Please go to www.yellowbrick-tracking.com to check out exactly what these things will be doing for us. It's a pretty awesome service. They'll be doing all of the web work for the online tracking page, so we won't have to have volunteers staying up all hours collating all the check-in data. Please note that check-in via SSB or sat phone will still be required.

We all know change is in the wind in regards to the Coast Guard's approval of ocean events. Being proactive to get these trackers will help them feel more comfortable in approving our permit, plus it has the added bonus of allowing friends and family to track the fleet more easily. Our group has always had a really good relationship with the Coast Guard because we've had good communication with them, and having trackers in our comm plan will go a long way to making them feel comfortable.

If you have any questions or concerns that you'd like to discuss with me privately, give me a call at 503-490-3305.

 

[brianb]

Hello All,

Another acceptable solution, without impact on the RC, is to allow skippers to turn trackers off at will. Please add this to the rules amendments.

Regards,

Brian

Hello All,

I have a few concerns about tracker data availability on deck. In my mind it is a huge advantage to have near real time data of your competitions moves. For those with satellite service they potentially have this visibility, at great expense. This advantage will not be available to all, or at least not this boat. A 24 hour update has been the norm, or possibly a 12 hour update. Unless the rules already state this, I would like to propose that access to vessel position data by competitors be limited to the period at check in time. If this is not acceptable than I would like to propose that tracker data will not be publicly available via the internet. Simply that the skipper of the each vessel can allow access to a list of email addresses, the USCG, and the RC. No other public users would have access to the data. The RC should publish a public update once or at most twice per day.

With regards to cost and safety: Cost - the trackers are cool and add to the public impression of the race, however the cost is prohibitive. For me it means bailing on the use of a Sat Phone as it is about the same cost.

Safety: This is getting out of hand. The layers of redundancy are adding more and more expense and are not necessary. The USCG has stated in every recent meeting , pre and post LSC disaster, that the EPIRB is the correct device. The combination of EPRIB and PLB enhances the picture further. Now we are adding yet another layer of safety at the price of more than a PLB. What action will the USCG take when a tracker fails ? None. They will wait for EPIRB confirmation of a real problem.

Please consider this and amend the rules accordingly.

Regards,

Brian Boschma
s/v redsky

 

[pogen]

Feedback to members of the Fleet from tracker data appears to be forbidden by the NOR and Race Rules. Plus, it appears that as long as you make your position reports via email, the Fleet will not even be able to guess where you are at all.

I know though that in a number of races (like the Puerto Vallarta race) where these same restrictions are in place, competitors get tracker data from the race website, and even admit to it on video.

If a number of boats are going the Satphone-only route, will be Committee be sending back the daily positions of all the boats? Or if you want to know the locations of your competition, you must have an SSB and be listening in during check-in? I guess a small SSB receiver would do the trick for that.

 

[brianb]

Hi,

I re read rrc 6.02 and the Outside Assistance Section. I see nothing that limits referencing position data at any time. Thus making it possible to get position at the frequency of the satellite update. The limit is on the type of info, not on frequency.

Maybe the rule should be tightened up to only allow access to pos. Data at time of check in ?

Feedback to members of the Fleet from tracker data appears to be forbidden by the NOR and Race Rules. Plus, it appears that as long as you make your position reports via email, the Fleet will not even be able to guess where you are at all.

I know though that in a number of races (like the Puerto Vallarta race) where these same restrictions are in place, competitors get tracker data from the race website, and even admit to it on video.

If a number of boats are going the Satphone-only route, will be Committee be sending back the daily positions of all the boats? Or if you want to know the locations of your competition, you must have an SSB and be listening in during check-in? I guess a small SSB receiver would do the trick for that.

 

[ronnie simpson]

Brianb, I had a lot of your same concerns and brought them up to Rob, as I'm sure others have done as well. I also mentioned doing something like Transpac last year and having all of the yellow brick trackers on a 6 hour delay online, until the first boat finishes, then it goes to real time. That would alleviate any tactical advantage to try to follow things online.

The consensus of the conversation is that it would be expressly prohibited to either check the online tracker positions or receive any info from family or friends, in regards to the tracker positions. This would be considered outside assistance and is strictly prohibited. The only position updates available to all skippers are the email position reports and listening on the ssb.

My vote was to just have tracker positions be available online, in real time, to make it exciting for people to follow the race. It's a Corinthian sailboat race. Helpfully no one will cheat and break the rules. Furthermore, it's a solo race. None of us have the time to sit at a nav statin and surf the web all day. Thats reserved for navigators on high dollar big boat programs.

 

[brianb]

Hi Ronnie,

The rules should explicitly call out the limit on competitors reviewing the position data. My reading seems to indicate this is not explicitly excluded. Since there is no statement in the rules about trackers I am going to assume that we can operate in stealth mode at will. As far as time to review positions, one could easily create a script that would access position data hourly and display on a PC screen in autonomous fashion, taking no time to manage.

I don't know , but is there a means to petition the RC for proposed rule changes ?

Thanks,

Brian

Brianb, I had a lot of your same concerns and brought them up to Rob, as I'm sure others have done as well. I also mentioned doing something like Transpac last year and having all of the yellow brick trackers on a 6 hour delay online, until the first boat finishes, then it goes to real time. That would alleviate any tactical advantage to try to follow things online.

The consensus of the conversation is that it would be expressly prohibited to either check the online tracker positions or receive any info from family or friends, in regards to the tracker positions. This would be considered outside assistance and is strictly prohibited. The only position updates available to all skippers are the email position reports and listening on the ssb.

My vote was to just have tracker positions be available online, in real time, to make it exciting for people to follow the race. It's a Corinthian sailboat race. Helpfully no one will cheat and break the rules. Furthermore, it's a solo race. None of us have the time to sit at a nav statin and surf the web all day. Thats reserved for navigators on high dollar big boat programs.

 

[ronnie simpson]

when we are all at the Corinthian Yacht Club the day before the race, there will be a sit-down meeting with the RC and every skipper that is 100% mandatory. Rob Tryon's biggest priority, besides safety, is the Corinthian spirit: no one should cheat and no one should have to protest at the end. Rob has until just before the race to amend the SI's. When those SI's were written, Yellowbrick trackers weren't part of the equation. Now they are, so I would fully expect Rob to address the issue very thoroughly. No need to petition the RC for a rule change. Rob reads this forum, so i'm guessing your petition was just filed.

As far as the stealth mode thing is concerned, I don't think that it will be an issue (I had the same concerns and was vocal about it. To be honest, I was originally very highly opposed to the idea of trackers because I didn't want to lose the ability to go into stealth mode for a bit.) With a firm rule that NO SKIPPER is allowed to access the position reports via the web, then no skipper will have access to yellowbrick data. so in regards to the other competitors, you'll be in stealth mode the whole time until you decide to check in again or send an email.

 

[pogen]

Hi,

I re read rrc 6.02 and the Outside Assistance Section. I see nothing that limits referencing position data at any time.

11.02 During the Race, no yacht may receive private or publicly available internet-distributed information
regarding weather, currents, course routing or other tactical advice, with the following specific
exceptions:
[a] Receipt of publicly available radio weather broadcasts
Diagrams commonly referred to as “weatherfax” generated by the U.S. National
Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration, or corresponding agencies of other
countries.
[c] Communication on open radio channels [without encryption] with other competitors, which
may consist of information such as current position, weather and sea conditions.
[d] Solicitation and receipt of information solely about the repair of any equipment on board,
but not including routing advice.
[e] Weather data commonly referred to as GRIB files, derived from weather models operated
by the U.S. National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration.
[f] The information about each yacht listed in RRC Rule 6.02 (but no other competitor data).


Competitor track and position data are "other tactical advice" and thus forbidden.

 

[brianb]

Hi Dave,

11.02 (f) makes an exception for info listed in RRC 6.02, which is position data. Hence position data is an exception to this restriction, therefore one could receive data from outside the scheduled position updates. Am I missing something ?

Brian

 

[John Hayward]

WOW!!! I havn't been on the forum for a while it seems..... As to the tracking info, I think from the posts this is *way* out of hand. I was comm boat for much of the last two races and I relayed all positions to the entire fleet twice a day, even positions received via sat phone or other. I have done the race twice and so don't think I am missing anything here. In a 2500 mile race, knowing positions every minute vs. twice a day is NOT going to give you the winning edge. I too think the Yellow Bricks are a needless expense and hope this doesn't set a precedent for future races since it seems that only a couple boats in the fleet were big on them. I personally don't give a damn one way or another if it's on my boat, but I would/will not pay for it and my biggest concern now it that the Coast Guard will now expect it in future races and it will become a requirement. If it's a requirement not a request, this is my last transpac. It would be safer still if we all had a chase boat following us in case of accident, but to me that totally opposed to the spirit and intent of the race. I view this race as all about preparation. Knowing your boat and having it properly prepared for all contigencies not hand holding.

Guess I wish I hadn't been off the forum for so long, I might have done more to oppose this idea. Seems like it's cast in granite now.......

John
Dream Chaser
Valiant 40

 

[robtryon]

Hi guys,

To clarify, I've spoken with most of the skippers, and only two (I leave you to guess which two) were firmly opposed to trackers. Everyone else was either amenable to having them or were nearly insistent on them. So to say only a couple wanted them is erroneous. What the CG wants is to make sure that we have a clear and consistent line of communications with the boats so we/they know where they are at least twice a day. Having trackers in our comm plan will go a long way to ensuring our permit to race is approved. In '08, two boats 'went dark' when their comms failed. I suspect that not only were their families freaking out, but that Synthia had some very unpleasant conversations with the CG. That kind of thing absolutely cannot happen again, most especially this year. You think things are touchy now? As much as it goes against the grain of this very self-reliant group - and anyone who knows me knows that I'm well-entrenched in that camp - I believe trackers will give (almost) everyone a sense of security, as specious as it may be.

As for the rules, I definitely will be amending them, and not just to add the trackers. But thanks, Brian, for pointing out the confusing language of the two rules. I'll make sure that's clarified with the final set. The comm plan has not been published and won't be for a bit yet, but I can tell you now that we plan to do what Ronnie mentioned: delay the position reports on the website's tracking page by six hours. That said, as the comm plan will note, the ONLY way to legally get your competitors' positions is via SSB check-in. If you don't have an SSB and your wife gives them to you over the phone, you are cheating. If you download the position reports from the race's website, you are cheating. If you get them any other way than by listening to the roll call on SSB, you are cheating. And believe me, I will make that abundantly clear at the skippers meeting. I don't think anyone in this race wants to cheat, but if they did, they'll find a way to do it. We can't police anyone when they're in the middle of the ocean, so we all just have to believe that everyone else is as honorable as we want them to be.

Back in 1978, a group of nutjobs decided it would be fun to singlehand to Hawaii. The furor this whipped up was epic, to say the least. Nearly everyone not actively involved with the race thought it was nothing short of a suicide mission. It was taken for granted that most of them would die before it was over. Thirty-four years later and the SHTP has not suffered a single death. Trackers won't keep that from happening, but consider this: During that first running, the comms were limited to VHF radio, so there essentially were no comms. When I did the race in '08, the big controversy was SSB vs. sat phone. I'm going to bet that when someone suggested requiring SSB back in '00 or so, there was a lot of opposition to that as well (I actually know one personally who was vehemently opposed to it). Technology changes and advances and eventually we have to embrace it. Anyone out there still using a rotary phone or typewriter?

When I took over the RC duties, I slashed the proposed entry fees by half, hoping to not only attract a big fleet but to also help keep the costs down, as I know how they can sky rocket. So believe me when I tell you that I agonized over this decision. It made me sick to call folks and tell them that I needed $300 more for this seemingly unimportant piece of equipment. And also believe this: If SPOT trackers were guaranteed to reach Hawaii, I'd just buy them all for you and cut down on the mai tais at tree time. But they're not, so our options were severely limited.

Again, I would ask that anyone who has questions or concerns to please call me directly at 503-490-3305.

 

[ronnie simpson]

just to clarify for others, but when you said that the ONLY way to legally receive competitor's positions was through SSB check-ins.

some boats might be sat phone only, can't they receive a twice daily email with all competitor's positions from the RC or comm boat, whoever sends it out?

 

[Critter]

Well put, Rob. BTW, I still use a rotary phone occasionally. And a slide rule.

 

[robtryon]

just to clarify for others, but when you said that the ONLY way to legally receive competitor's positions was through SSB check-ins.

some boats might be sat phone only, can't they receive a twice daily email with all competitor's positions from the RC or comm boat, whoever sends it out?

Short answer: no. SSB only.

 

[cafemontaigne]

I'm not excited about shelling out $300 at the moment for an item of no value to me on the boat, and which I don't even get to keep, but I have a bunch of family and friends who will be excited to hear we have trackers. I think it will make the race more interesting to follow, and maybe that will be good for the race in the long run (more entries? more sponsors?).

As for the cheating aspect... Seriously? I hardly even know what to do with everybody's 12-hour positions... But a 6-hour delay seems to put an end to that concern.

When we used the yellowbrick trackers on Swiftsure, I had three concerns with them:
1) They were in a little bag that clipped on to the stanchion with a plastic buckle. This seems a little flimsy for SHTP.
2) They had an annoying flashing green light. It's a pain while night sailing, and even if you tape it over, the bag is translucent enough that you can still see it.
3) Supposedly it goes into sleep mode every 24 hours so you have to reset it. To see the reset button, you can't tape over the blinking light.

Hopefully the units used here are different and don't have these shortcomings.

 

[BobJ]

Rob's Really a Racer:

I picked up your R/C yesterday at the Gabriels. Ruben and Robbie's place is very much a combo of Moore's Reef and the Wizard's Chicken Coop, but with real chickens. There are Moore parts all over the place - R & R have one each plus the Buffalo - and there are indeed chickens. I suggested a picata would be nice but was informed these are pet chickens. There's one I'm sure Ruben would take with him to Hawaii, but your R/C reminded him that no pets are allowed. (Can you imagine hearing that in the background during the SSB net?)

I figured Rob needed a daysail on Ragtime! - I was right. One thing I discovered is that Rob really is a racer. I gave him an upwind target and soon realized he was fixated on the knot meter - a few minutes later he beat the target by 2/10 of a knot. Well bless my dodger'n solar panels! We flew the 2A, sailed on AP for awhile including several gybes and a douse in 20+, and generally had a fine day out.

We talked about many of you and I have to say I'm really going to miss being part of this one. Rob allowed as how I could do a couple of boat inspections.

After hearing about the tracker deal yesterday I've been mulling it over. I agree with Rob that an amendment to the RR&C's is probably necessary - that document was not written with trackers in mind. My personal opinion is that trackers are for the Dept. of Homeland Security and your fans at home, and should be irrelevant to the racers. Ronnie and Brian are probably right - technically it isn't illegal to get the position information listed in 6.02. My recollection is we didn't want to cause a rules violation when relaying information during the SSB net. However, there was an intentional preference given to the SSB (transceiver) boats. If you insisted on only taking a satphone, you gave up the ability to get all the boat positions unless you also took an SSB receiver (like the Minis do). It's a significant additional burden to the comm boat(s) and shore station to deal with the satphone data (I was the shore station for most of the 2010 race), and the comm boats are also racing.

In response to Adrian, I had a YellowBrick during the LongPac, attached to one of the stern pulpits. It got a bit damp. Once I remembered to remove the little magnet from the bottom (don't store it by your compass or fluxgate) it worked fine and I never noticed a flashing green light or need to reset it. Hopefully you will get the same model.

 

[John Hayward]

I just talked to Rob and found out the tracker is no longer an optional piece of equipment for this race it is now required. I am not willing to have it on board under these circumstances (on philisophical not economic grounds) so I am dropping out. Guess 2010 was my last Transpac. No chance of catching up with The General now.

 

[John Hayward]

We don't have a thread about the comm plan but since you are all now *required* to carry the transponder is a twice daily checkin still necessary? The *only* purpose of the comm plan and checkins was to let the coasties know where we were. If that is being done for us automatically, is a twice daily roll call necessary with penalties for non-compliance???