Power-Assisted Sailing - the Slippery Slope

[bobwalden]

Not sure I made this point clear, let me re-state: this boat will not be entered into divisions with other competitors in YRA races, until such time more boats that are similarly equipped also enter the race. Until then, he’ll get a division of his own, so his performance can be evaluated and compared, but will not be in competition with other sailors who don’t have the benefit of the advanced systems being used on this boat.

 

[DaveH]

this boat will not be entered into divisions with other competitors in YRA races, until such time more boats that are similarly equipped also enter the race. Until then, he’ll get a division of his own, so his performance can be evaluated and compared, but will not be in competition with other sailors who don’t have the benefit of the advanced systems being used on this boat.

As has been suggested as a remedy elsewhere in the thread.
This seems to me to be a reasonable approach.

I think Solo's legit frustration is that this was not made clear by YRA, and that there's not been a similar response from the SSS.

DH

 

[solosailor]

this boat will not be entered into divisions with other competitors in YRA races

That would be a good thing but that didn't happen in the last few races. Also, being in an experimental "powered" division is one thing but they would still be eligible for an overall trophy which is no bueno.

 

[bobwalden]

That would be a good thing but that didn't happen in the last few races. Also, being in an experimental "powered" division is one thing but they would still be eligible for an overall trophy which is no bueno.

Yeah i already apologized for YRA not making it clear 8ball would be in its own division; it was a new experience for us also. We’ll do better.

As for an overall trophy i would not think so. At least for YRA we don’t do cross-division overall awards as far as I can tell; I can’t speak to what others orgs will do.

 

[solosailor]

Unless I've heard wrong...... Eightball, first to finish, first overall, only boat to finish?

 

[DaveH]

It would seem to me that "experimental" is by definition not rate-able against other boats and that division should logically excluded from consideration for combined trophies; same logic that mono & multihulls have their own Season OA trophies.

Yes, creating such a division and carving out its exemptions would require some re-writing of the SSS Season NOR.
OTOH, we are at the end of this season, such as it was, so now's about the time for that...


DH

 

[BobJ]

FYI, the PHRF meeting minutes are available online. Here's the committee's recent decision regarding Eight Ball:

OWNER NAME / BOAT NAME / CLASS/MODEL
Scott Easom / 8-Ball / J 100 MOD

Boat is fully powered with captive winches. It may not comply with RRS 52 and may not be watertight.

Base Rating for the J 100 is 81
-6 sec/mi for powered captive winches
-9 sec/mi for increased I & J

PROVISIONAL RATING ISSUED. Skipper needs to race boat in this configuration for 6 months and then send race results in to PHRF Committee for review of rating.

As Sailed: 66
DW Rating: 595
_____________________________________________

My observation from this weekend is that Eight Ball's big code sail (see "increased I & J" above) and spinnakers did him more good in finishing on Saturday than the winch package.

On a related subject, could we move the V 1-2 to two weeks earlier like it was 10+ years ago? We usually had better wind earlier in October. It also gave the board more time to wrap up the season, plan the annual meeting, and work up the schedule for the next season.

 

[Bombora]

Hello all,
I had a great time racing with you guys in the Vallejo 1-2.

Scott gave us a nice little demo of 8-ball on Sunday morning. It's quite the machine - there's a long list of controls that trim and ease automatically with the push of a button. There is nothing that isn't powered. The only control that doesn't ease automatically is spinnaker sheet and masthead genoa sheet - those sails sheet to the powered cabin top winch. Everything else - Backstay, main outhaul, vang, sheet, traveler, jib outhaul, sheet, furler, are captive and powered in and out with a remote control.

This is obviously a big performance difference from a boat with just a couple powered winches, especially in shorthanded racing. I do think it puts the boat in a different category from those of us racing "normal" boats. I think that the line needs to be drawn somewhere, and I'm not sure exactly where, between power assist and fully automated. Then fully automated boats should be racing in their own division and not eligible for the overall awards in SSS.

Rebecca
Bombora

 

[Philpott]

Rebecca is a fierce competitor with a keen sense of fashion: "the singlehander style". And she's no whiner.

Sunday morning here she was sporting a whopping lump on her shin, gotten trying until the very end to finish Vallejo 1.



Did she bleed all over Bombora? "Nah," said the fashionista. "It's cut on the bone."

 

[AlanH]

I haven't seen the boat. However, I understand that, for example, the mainsheet disappears down below to a reel which is beneath the cabin sole. So if the handheld controller fails, or the electricity fails, or there's a big short-circuit, you can't release the mainsheet. Ditto for jib sheets. Maybe you can leave the helm and crawl down below under the cockpit sole to release the mainsheet.

That's insane. If there aren't manual overrides for the electrics this is a huge safety issue and I for one would never sail a boat like that in the Bay. Maybe I'd tool up and down the Alameda Estuary in that, but out in the main Bay? NO way.

If for that that reason alone and no other, I'm not so sure the boat should be racing in the SSS, totally aside from the issues with US Sailing rules.

 

[AntsUiga]

Hello all,
I had a great time racing with you guys in the Vallejo 1-2.

Scott gave us a nice little demo of 8-ball on Sunday morning. It's quite the machine - there's a long list of controls that trim and ease automatically with the push of a button. There is nothing that isn't powered. The only control that doesn't ease automatically is spinnaker sheet and masthead genoa sheet - those sails sheet to the powered cabin top winch. Everything else - Backstay, main outhaul, vang, sheet, traveler, jib outhaul, sheet, furler, are captive and powered in and out with a remote control.

This is obviously a big performance difference from a boat with just a couple powered winches, especially in shorthanded racing. I do think it puts the boat in a different category from those of us racing "normal" boats. I think that the line needs to be drawn somewhere, and I'm not sure exactly where, between power assist and fully automated. Then fully automated boats should be racing in their own division and not eligible for the overall awards in SSS.

Rebecca
Bombora

Did Scott make any comments on Why he was making the efforts to automate everything? Curiosity.

Ants

 

[sunol]

Just noticed this story on power winches in the Marin Journal. Bella and Eight Ball are mentioned.
https://www.marinij.com/2021/02/20/...to-boat-optimization-for-shorthanded-sailing/
It's an interesting space for sure with complicated implications for racing as y'all have articulated better than I.
ROXANNE has a powered winch for the main only. I'm turning it off for the first time for the Corinthian, but I appreciate having it in general - and more so as each year passes.

 

[Black Jack]

I know this is so last year... YRA from 2022 states:

IX. ELECTRIC WINCHES
Electric winches are disallowed under RRS 52, unless specifically allowed by a race committee in the Sailing Instructions. Nevertheless, electric winches are becoming more commonplace. Boats that list use of electric winches on their rating application will be assigned a penalty according to the table below. This penalty will apply to both buoy and downwind ratings. A boat that is rated with electric winches may opt to enter a race where they are not allowed, sailing only with manual power. In that event the race committee may adjust the boat’s rating by removing the stated penalty.
Function of electric winch
Change to rating
Electric halyard winches
Electric cockpit or sheet winches that must be eased by hand. Back‐winding or reel cockpit or sheet winches
‐0 sec/mi ‐3 sec/mi ‐9 sec/mi
Back‐winding or reel winches are generally high speed winches that can control sheet in and out with the push of a button

------------------------------------------------

A 0 to 3 second hit on a heavier boat... It does beg the question why not as I consider changes and upgrades for short course and bay work.

 

[Philpott]

I have a question. Just one. If I buy that $20 /bit and use a drill to crank in or up my sails during a race, would that be considered using an "electric winch"?

Because I get tired racing in big wind. Doesn't everyone?

Signed, Always Scheming

 

[solosailor]

As you can probably guess it's not legal while racing unless you declare it.

 

[Philpott]

As you can probably guess it's not legal while racing unless you declare it.

I just needed to hear you say it.

 

[BobJ]

1) I don't like these anonymous posts. I'm sure you're an SSS regular - don't be shy.

2) Who are the "many who think" this long-closed issue should be reopened?

3) Under its bylaws, the SSS has never had a "general membership." Only the five board members can vote. And they did.

4) Obviously your beef is with Scott's J100 Eight Ball. I see he's entered in the SH Farallones and if he does well, he'll be in contention for the singlehanded season. So your beef is understandable. However the SSS has never been in the business of rating boats. If you think Eight Ball's rating is unfair, file an appeal with NorCal PHRF. They are the ones who devised the powered winch penalty system, after we went through this twice before.

5) Added after checking the PHRF database: Base OD rating for the J100 is 84. His winch package should be -9 sec/mile but it shows -6 on his certificate. He's getting +3 sec for a reduced sized-spinnaker, although it's about the same dimensions as the other J100s. The big change is that in 2022, he switched back to class I & J. That's an 84% or 100% LP headsail, depending on where you look. So his rating is 81 with the over-the-top winch package. Doesn't seem right and it might be worth an inquiry.

 

[Xavier]

When we had a chance to express our opinion on the powered winch issue through an SSS survey, I indicated a preference for powered winch boats to have their own division. I was disappointed to see that solution abandoned. I am also disappointed at the PHRF decisions to reduce the rating adjustments for powered winches. Please note: I am fine with no rating adjustment for boats with a powered main halyard winch.
Sam

 

[BobJ]

FWIW, I just scrolled through the current (5/20/25) PHRF certificate list and noted all the boats with powered winches declared, then compared those to the entry list for the SH Farallones. There are two SHF entries with powered winches: One boat with only a powered halyard winch, and Eight Ball with powered everything.

Another observation is that among all monohulls racing singlehanded, none finished this year's Three Bridge Fiasco and none with powered winches finished the Corinthian Race or Round the Rocks... except Eight Ball, who was first overall singlehanded in the RTR.

So are powered winches the problem or just one particular boat?

 

[DaveH]

Hello-
Per the OP's request, I have deleted 2 posts from the thread above.
Yeah, moderators can do that,,, and yes, the previous convention of near limitless edits has changed to a 24hr window to edit your posts...
Part of the "best practices" reasoning for that is to keep conversations coherent, and not have hanging posts/responses to subsequently modiified posts - which is now what we have. GDI.
Acknowleding this is a highly unusual action in this space, and since I don't feel comfortable deleting the subsequent responses from Sam & Bob - well here we are.

FWIW - I think there is a conversation, hopefully to be continued, around the topic at hand.
I was asked to step in and modify / delete the approach taken to bump it, by the OP.
Appologies for the disruption, and the recalibration.

DH