Power-Assisted Sailing - the Slippery Slope

[BobJ]

I disagree with your recharacterization of the issue (you like to do that). Most skippers (who currently race) are concerned with having a fair competition. We recognize this is PHRF with its issues, but skippers have agreed to race under this rating system and want to feel like the boats are reasonably rated against each other. So if a boat with powered sail handling systems is able to point higher, round the marks more crisply, etc. then a rating adjustment for those systems may be appropriate. If they merely allow a skipper to get back out there and keep racing, that doesn't take anything away from the rest of the skippers.

Scott is willing to risk his own capital and has the skills to innovate in this area, enabling some to keep racing. You want to throw his efforts under the bus because it doesn't seem "enough like sailing a boat" to you?
.

 

[AntsUiga]

Singlehanded sailing has been innovating for a half century or longer. Mechanical (winches etc) and electromechanical (autopilots etc) have been constantly changing. The physical capabilities of each skipper changes with time also. Usually, the non-skipper advantages come with trade offs. A bigger winch will allow easier trimming but the reefing and sail handling of a larger sail is a bigger challenge. A simple boat seldom fails, but complexity invites failure.

I think an extreme advantage would garner attention and treated accordingly by the SSS governing body. I can only think of a few items in short handed sailing that have been banned outright (extreme length - Vendredi 13, and uranium keels with higher density).

Adjustments by the SSS to this evolution of equipment seems to be working. Equipment that gets the skipper back to port safely is always a good thing.

Is the fully electric boat a risk to other sailors? Is a fully electric boat a risk to it's skipper? Is a fully electric boat a good investment to winning races?

But, most importantly, does a fully electric boat offend the other participants?

I don't have a clue.

Ants

 

[BobJ]

Ants, your comments prompt me to re-post Greg's quote of the organization's purpose:

"The Singlehanded Sailing Society (SSS) was conceived to provide a forum where sailors and others interested in the sport of singlehanded sailing could share their ideas and experiences. It is the intent of the SSS to make it possible for such sailors to compete in seaworthy sailing vessels of various types and designs on a fair and equitable basis. The purpose of the races is to provide an organized arena in which ideas, equipment, designs, and vessels specifically created, built, modified, or equipped for long distance singlehanded racing may be tested and evaluated through friendly sportsmanlike competition. The development of personal skill in singlehanded sailing is encouraged through sailing events and seminars."

I see a lot in there that encourages innovation. Brains over brawn.

 

[solosailor]

I see a lot in there that encourages innovation. Brains over brawn.

I do too..... but those boats should not be racing against boats that use manual power. Transpac has a first to finish (nearly always a power assist vessel) and the handicap Barn Door for manual power only boats. Everyone should be able to compete and I do see a division for such down the road. But where does the SSS want to draw the line now that we went from "some" power assist to full on only power assist?

 

[tiger beetle]

I disagree with your recharacterization of the issue (you like to do that).

I don't believe I recharacterized the issue. To paraphrase Greg's initial question is asking a response to whether or not the SSS should allow power-assisted boats to race, but if so should they be in their own division? How a particular boats places in a race has nothing to do with Greg's question.

We recognize this is PHRF with its issues...

Does the PHRF committee adjust a boat's rating to factor in the perceived benefit of using power-assisted devices? I have no information on this.

If they merely allow a skipper to get back out there and keep racing, that doesn't take anything away from the rest of the skippers.

When I am wearing myself out short-tacking up the Napa River or the City Front while the boat next to me is simply pushing buttons to do the same thing, then yes - the use of the powered winches on the boat next to me *is* taking away from my ability to compete with them.

I don't want the discussion to be specific to any boat or person; the issue is broader than that. I like the idea of bringing in new ideas. In this case the new ideas could be set up in their own division if the SSS wants to allow the new ideas onto the race course.

What's the plan for when SSS has no more singlehanders? I'm starting to wonder if that's actually a goal of the current board.

The Board can not control or mandate whether or not boat owners want to race singlehanded, doublehanded, or not at all. What the Board can do is set out the NOR, the SIs, and see who shows up. If people stop singlehanding then the SSS carries on with doublehanders - those are the people showing up. If you want to force singlehanded participation then drop the doublehanded divisions or limit the number of times in a year a particular boat may sail doublehanded; I think that would be a bad idea, as it's clear from the race participation that more people want to doublehand than singlehand. Whether or not others are singlehanding should have no impact on a skipper's decision to enter a race singlehanded, though it might.

- rob

 

[hijan1]

I find PHRF very important, it reduces the influence of money in sailing and helps the better sailor, not the better boat, to win. Certain improvements carry a penalty, for example an aftermarket bowsprit.

Is the mentioned standard that an alteration has to lead to better results to affect PHRF generally followed?

While it is clear that some changes make a boat faster, I do not think that this improvement can be statistically proven in most cases, the numbers are too small and there are too many parameters. There are only very few boat types where you can compare 100+ race results with a smaller and 100 with a larger genoa, and correct for crew, wind, etc.

On the other hand, some improvements obviously can make boats faster, even without bullet proof stats. So I would say the "improvement in race results" standard is too high and PHRF involves probably a lot of eyeballing, traditions and generalizations to determine how many seconds the penalty for that larger genoa is.

In my view an electrical winch can have an obvious advantage in some (not all) situations, like tacking up the city front to Blackaller, especially when single-or double-handing. Like adding a bowsprit, like a larger genoa. The PHRF committee should try to find an appropriate penalty for this.

Cheers

Jan

 

[BobJ]

Does the PHRF committee adjust a boat's rating to factor in the perceived benefit of using power-assisted devices?

PHRF doesn't adjust ratings for perceived benefits, they adjust ratings for changes in observed performance. That's why to appeal a rating you submit race results. This is in their regulations.

When I am wearing myself out short-tacking up the Napa River or the City Front while the boat next to me is simply pushing buttons to do the same thing, then yes - the use of the powered winches on the boat next to me *is* taking away from my ability to compete with them.

How so? In both quotes above, you're hung up on how it looks to you rather than whether it's improving the boat's performance in a race.

The Board can not control or mandate whether or not boat owners want to race singlehanded, doublehanded, or not at all. What the Board can do is set out the NOR, the SIs, and see who shows up. If people stop singlehanding then the SSS carries on with doublehanders - those are the people showing up. If you want to force singlehanded participation then drop the doublehanded divisions or limit the number of times in a year a particular boat may sail doublehanded; I think that would be a bad idea, as it's clear from the race participation that more people want to doublehand than singlehand. Whether or not others are singlehanding should have no impact on a skipper's decision to enter a race singlehanded, though it might.

The SSS needs to decide if it will remember its roots and use creativity, education and innovation to enhance singlehanded sailing, or if it will focus on maximizing total race entries - mostly doublehanders in recent years. The board can tailor the club's program to encourage more singlehanders if it wants to. But one prominent SSS officer wrote to me that he wants the numbers and perceived success. That's not the club I joined and have supported over the years. Years ago there was probably an SSS article titled "Doublehanders - the Slippery Slope."
.

 

[Travieso]

Bob

"Make SSS great again"???

Why do you think the club is not meeting its mission of: "use creativity, education and innovation to enhance singlehanded sailing". In any case this is a topic for its own separate thread.

To keep the focus on this thread, two things are clear:

- Rule 52 of the Racing Rules of Sailing disallow any non human powered support during racing, because it provides an advantage. I don't see any other reason for its existence otherwise. There is no question here, we don't need to debate this.

- SSS has traditionally made narrow exceptions to that rule and other rules for the benefit of single handling, 1.c.i and 1.c.ii. I think there is no debate that those rule exceptions are both: (a) generally available to the broad SH community and (b) improves our collective ability to race the boats fairly and equitably.

I think the topic for discussion in this thread is whether the current wording of 1.c.iii meets that bar, and if not should it be removed, reworded or put in an experimental class.

I don't think the case has been made to broad community, at least the active one here, that 1.c.iii should stand as is, given its potential for abuse. Myself and others have made some proposals on this thread already that are inclusive in their goals, no need to repeat them here.

I'm not on the board, so all I can do is provide my unsolicited input. But as the membership we are the ones that put people in the board, so if we are unhappy with it we know how to fix it....

 

[Joyride]

Regarding the progression of NOR Rule 1 c iii, I pulled up the oldest NOR I could find on jibeset : 2011. As you can see 1 c iii has been there since at least 2011.

For 2020 we (the SSS Board) decided to rewrite the NOR to discourage the powered behavior, by requiring that the PHRF specifies allowable usage for the powered winches. This was based on a report of a young healthy sailor short-tacking SF using powered winches. If you're not racing you can use all the powered stuff you want. Once you are racing, and you want to use power winches, you now have to have the PHRF committee spell out what you can use for their rating. This was what we did to limit the use of powered winches, somewhat on the reasoning that the PHRF Committee will only give you one rating, so most likely the only person who would ask for this degraded rating would be an SSS-only racer, since other races don't allow powered winches. Any way, here's the cut/paste from over the years:

2011 NOR 1 c iii: Powered winches, hydraulics, or furling devices – only on boats that have declared this information on their PHRF application and have been rated accordingly. This modifies RRS 52.

Remains identical through 2019.

2019 NOR 1 c iii: Powered winches, hydraulics, or furling devices – only on boats that have declared this information on their PHRF application and have been rated accordingly. This modifies RRS 52.

2020 NOR 1 c iii (Jan 1, 2020): Powered winches, hydraulics, or furling devices – only on boats that have declared this information on their PHRF application and have received a PHRF rating that specifies allowable usage for the powered winches.

2020 NOR 1 c iii (Posted around 1/30/2020 for Corinthian race) : Powered winches, hydraulics, or furling devices – only on boats that have declared this information on their PHRF application and have received a PHRF rating that specifies allowable usage for the powered winches. This modifies RRS 52.

At some point prior to Jan 30 I noticed that 1 c iii left off "This modifies RRS 52" and so I added it back in, which is what's posted on the Corinthian jibeset page. Unfortunately there are other versions of the NOR out there that leave out "This modifies RRS 52" but all versions out there have the 2020 change shown above regarding specifying allowable usage.

 

[Travieso]

Thanks for the history Jim.

Regarding the progression of NOR Rule 1 c iii, I pulled up the oldest NOR I could find on jibeset : 2011. As you can see 1 c iii has been there since at least 2011.

For 2020 we (the SSS Board) decided to rewrite the NOR to discourage the powered behavior, by requiring that the PHRF specifies allowable usage for the powered winches. This was based on a report of a young healthy sailor short-tacking SF using powered winches. If you're not racing you can use all the powered stuff you want. Once you are racing, and you want to use power winches, you now have to have the PHRF committee spell out what you can use for their rating. This was what we did to limit the use of powered winches, somewhat on the reasoning that the PHRF Committee will only give you one rating, so most likely the only person who would ask for this degraded rating would be an SSS-only racer, since other races don't allow powered winches. Any way, here's the cut/paste from over the years:

2011 NOR 1 c iii: Powered winches, hydraulics, or furling devices – only on boats that have declared this information on their PHRF application and have been rated accordingly. This modifies RRS 52.

Remains identical through 2019.

2019 NOR 1 c iii: Powered winches, hydraulics, or furling devices – only on boats that have declared this information on their PHRF application and have been rated accordingly. This modifies RRS 52.

2020 NOR 1 c iii (Jan 1, 2020): Powered winches, hydraulics, or furling devices – only on boats that have declared this information on their PHRF application and have received a PHRF rating that specifies allowable usage for the powered winches.

2020 NOR 1 c iii (Posted around 1/30/2020 for Corinthian race) : Powered winches, hydraulics, or furling devices – only on boats that have declared this information on their PHRF application and have received a PHRF rating that specifies allowable usage for the powered winches. This modifies RRS 52.

At some point prior to Jan 30 I noticed that 1 c iii left off "This modifies RRS 52" and so I added it back in, which is what's posted on the Corinthian jibeset page. Unfortunately there are other versions of the NOR out there that leave out "This modifies RRS 52" but all versions out there have the 2020 change shown above regarding specifying allowable usage.

 

[AlanH]

While it doesn't bother me if someone has electric halyard winches, stuff like an electrical system that powers hydraulics that adjusts a canting keel, and electric sheet winches doesn't sit well with me. For cruising and daysailing? Hey, fine....not so much for racing. I know that any boat with a canting keel bigger than a mini uses powered systems to run it. That's how it's been for 15+ years, now.

Is more and more automation the "future of sailing"? I'm not qualified to judge. I dunno.

I do worry a bit about dividing up the SSS races into so many classes that we dilute participation.

Singlehanded PHRF <100 - spinnaker
Singlehanded PHRF 101-135 - spinnaker
Singlehanded PHRF 136- 165 - spinnaker
Singlehanded PHRF 166+ spinnaker

Singlehanded PHRF <100 - non-spinnaker
Singlehanded PHRF 101-135 - non-spinnaker
Singlehanded PHRF 136-165 - non-spinnaker
Singlehanded PHRF 166+ non-spinnaker

Doublehanded PHRF <100 - spinnaker
Doublehanded PHRF 101-135 - spinnaker
Doublehanded PHRF 136- 165 - spinnaker
Doublehanded PHRF 166+ spinnaker

Doublehanded PHRF <100 - non-spinnaker
Doublehanded PHRF 101-135 - non-spinnaker
Doublehanded PHRF 136-165 - non-spinnaker
Doublehanded PHRF 166+ non-spinnaker

Sportboat singlehanded
Sportboat doublehanded

Multihulls

Express 27 One Design doublehanded
J-105 One Design doublehanded .. or SF Bay 30, or whomever..
Moore 24 One Design doublehanded

Take 100 boats, divide them into the 22 classes I just listed, which is typical for our races even if I have the PHRF numbers off a bit, and you don't even have 5 boats in a class. Are we going to add the following?

Singlehanded PHRF <100 - spinnaker Power Assisted
Singlehanded PHRF 101-135 - spinnaker Power Assisted
Singlehanded PHRF 136- 165 - spinnaker Power Assisted
Singlehanded PHRF 166+ spinnaker Power Assisted

Singlehanded PHRF <100 - non-spinnaker Power Assisted
Singlehanded PHRF 101-135 - non-spinnaker Power Assisted
Singlehanded PHRF 136-165 - non-spinnaker Power Assisted
Singlehanded PHRF 166+ non-spinnaker Power Assisted

Doublehanded PHRF <100 - spinnaker Power Assisted
Doublehanded PHRF 101-135 - spinnaker Power Assisted
Doublehanded PHRF 136- 165 - spinnaker Power Assisted
Doublehanded PHRF 166+ spinnaker Power Assisted

Doublehanded PHRF <100 - non-spinnaker Power Assisted
Doublehanded PHRF 101-135 - non-spinnaker Power Assisted
Doublehanded PHRF 136-165 - non-spinnaker Power Assisted
Doublehanded PHRF 166+ non-spinnaker Power Assisted


I'm not saying that's "the answer" especially since now in some cases the DH boats are sailing different courses from the SH boats, but is that where we are headed?

 

[Travieso]

Its not that bad Alan. PHRF bands are arbitrary to control class sizes. I see power assisted just like non-spinnaker... all in one class until the time there is a need to split them because of large numbers. As I said, from what I could see from PHRF data there is only a single boat with electric winches declared.

While it doesn't bother me if someone has electric halyard winches, stuff like an electrical system that powers hydraulics that adjusts a canting keel, and electric sheet winches doesn't sit well with me. For cruising and daysailing? Hey, fine....not so much for racing. I know that any boat with a canting keel bigger than a mini uses powered systems to run it. That's how it's been for 15+ years, now.

Is more and more automation the "future of sailing"? I'm not qualified to judge. I dunno.

I do worry a bit about dividing up the SSS races into so many classes that we dilute participation.

Singlehanded PHRF <100 - spinnaker
Singlehanded PHRF 101-135 - spinnaker
Singlehanded PHRF 136- 165 - spinnaker
Singlehanded PHRF 166+ spinnaker

Singlehanded PHRF <100 - non-spinnaker
Singlehanded PHRF 101-135 - non-spinnaker
Singlehanded PHRF 136-165 - non-spinnaker
Singlehanded PHRF 166+ non-spinnaker

Doublehanded PHRF <100 - spinnaker
Doublehanded PHRF 101-135 - spinnaker
Doublehanded PHRF 136- 165 - spinnaker
Doublehanded PHRF 166+ spinnaker

Doublehanded PHRF <100 - non-spinnaker
Doublehanded PHRF 101-135 - non-spinnaker
Doublehanded PHRF 136-165 - non-spinnaker
Doublehanded PHRF 166+ non-spinnaker

Sportboat singlehanded
Sportboat doublehanded

Multihulls

Express 27 One Design doublehanded
J-105 One Design doublehanded .. or SF Bay 30, or whomever..
Moore 24 One Design doublehanded

Take 100 boats, divide them into the 22 classes I just listed, which is typical for our races even if I have the PHRF numbers off a bit, and you don't even have 5 boats in a class. Are we going to add the following?

Singlehanded PHRF <100 - spinnaker Power Assisted
Singlehanded PHRF 101-135 - spinnaker Power Assisted
Singlehanded PHRF 136- 165 - spinnaker Power Assisted
Singlehanded PHRF 166+ spinnaker Power Assisted

Singlehanded PHRF <100 - non-spinnaker Power Assisted
Singlehanded PHRF 101-135 - non-spinnaker Power Assisted
Singlehanded PHRF 136-165 - non-spinnaker Power Assisted
Singlehanded PHRF 166+ non-spinnaker Power Assisted

Doublehanded PHRF <100 - spinnaker Power Assisted
Doublehanded PHRF 101-135 - spinnaker Power Assisted
Doublehanded PHRF 136- 165 - spinnaker Power Assisted
Doublehanded PHRF 166+ spinnaker Power Assisted

Doublehanded PHRF <100 - non-spinnaker Power Assisted
Doublehanded PHRF 101-135 - non-spinnaker Power Assisted
Doublehanded PHRF 136-165 - non-spinnaker Power Assisted
Doublehanded PHRF 166+ non-spinnaker Power Assisted


I'm not saying that's "the answer" especially since now in some cases the DH boats are sailing different courses from the SH boats, but is that where we are headed?

 

[AlanH]

Its not that bad Alan. PHRF bands are arbitrary to control class sizes. I see power assisted just like non-spinnaker... all in one class until the time there is a need to split them because of large numbers. As I said, from what I could see from PHRF data there is only a single boat with electric winches declared.

Sure...OK, for now, one boat, who is apparently doing OK at their racing, but not dominating their class at this time. Will this take off and in five years, we'll have 20 boats? I have no idea, I'm just asking what folks think.

I'm just waiting for the first foiling boat to apply for an SSS race!!

 

[solosailor]

Bumping up this thread.

Well, the PHRF committee has for some reason provided a rating certificate for this fully powered boat that completely breaks Rule 52, manually operating your boat. As I said prior, the slippery slope of having a single halyard winch has progressed to multiple winches and now a FULLY POWERED SAIL HANDLING SYSTEM.

For a reminder of this boats configuration: All the sail handling is power driven and controlled via a wireless handheld remote. The below deck jib fuller, jib sheet, jib-boom rotation, jib traveler, main traveler & sheet, 2x halyards, backstay, vang, outhauls, etc. are all FULLY ELECTRIC POWERED. The only above deck powered winch you can access and ease a control line manually is the cabin top halyard winches. There is NO WAY to manually trim or ease the sails. All single-line sheets, etc. disappear below deck to its powered winch/reel.

These advantages provide some benefit when racing against fully crewed boats and the lowered PHRF rating reflects that. However these advantages are greatly amplified when racing shortanded.

It saddens me greatly but after 20-25 years of rarely missing an SSS race I've decided not to enter in protest. It’s quite unfortunate that the SSS is choosing to allow the fleet to include POWERED SAIL HANDLING, pushing buttons to get around the course and competing against manually sailed boats including being eligible for overall trophies.

This is not about any particular sailor or boat, nor about excluding anyone from racing. It is about preserving what fair competitive sailing is. Au revoir, Greg Nelsen

 

[Philpott]

Greg, as you know, I have no pony in this race. I am sorry to hear that you won't be racing with us. It is a principled stand and I respect that. However, it doesn't hurt anyone but you. It's more fun when you are out there, kicking everybody's transom.

Everybody in the room knows who has the electric winches, awards will be grudgingly given, but in the end, it's the sailing that counts. Will you decline to participate in every race from now on? Because I don't see those boats bowing out. And it would be a shame if you aren't out there any more.

Maybe buy an old Cal with dacron sails, come out and compete with Dura Mater straight up? Katherine might go with you to Drakes Bay, Half Moon Bay if it was as comfortable as is my fat tank. To paraphrase: Make Sailing Great Again!

 

[AlanH]

Well, I have no idea who has the auto-boat, and I don't really care. I think it's interesting that Greg, no stranger to technology - carbon fiber, composites, and more feels that this is enough of an issue to make a stand about. I have a lot of respect for Greg and his skills, not having him out there is a loss.

 

[bobwalden]

A bit late to the thread and trying to catch up. I think most of the pertinent points have been made. Cyc I guess is letting 8ball compete using the phrf adjustments, but in my opinion that doesn’t raeally take into account how radically the type of power assist in that boat impact sh sailing vs crewed. For YRA, we’ll be putting this boat into it’s own division as we did for the encinal race this weekend. Sorry that wasn’t apparent; we’ll make this more apparent in future races. If Scott and others are successful making boats like this plentiful, then we can think about giving out trophies; but for now consider this boat a demonstration of new tech, and while he’ll start YRA races, you won’t be competing for awards.

 

[solosailor]

However, it doesn't hurt anyone but you.

You smart women think alike..... that is the exact thing Kathryn said to me. Of course I am the one who loses out but someone had to bring this to light in a way that got some attention as NONE OF THE RACE ORGs LET ANYONE KNOW THIS BOAT WOULD BE RACING ON THE COURSE WITH THEM. This is what me got pretty upset..... WHY hasn't ANY race organizers ASKED their participants their views on eliminating Rule 52s manual power requirement?

For YRA, we’ll be putting this boat into it’s own division as we did for the encinal race this weekend.

He was in his own division at least from a few competitors view by there being no other entries. I HAD wanted to enter singlehanded on the smoke out date, then the bionic-boat showed up. So I entered Doublehanded and the race was smoked out. I couldn't get my DH crew back for the replacement date and as I didn't want to race against such a boat singlehanded I withdrew my entry. The other singlehanded that entered prior couldn't make the date but let it be known that he was put into that division with the bionic-boat without ANY knowledge that the boat was fully powered assist and wasn't happy to hear he would be a guinea pig. A note that he did race and was scored in the YRA/RYC Island Tour even though there was NO exclusion of Rule 52.

Also, this to me has nothing to do with the rating that was assigned but that the boat got a rating at all. I will not enter events that allows such a boat to race level against manually powered boats. Of course as you note the benefit is greatly exaggerated when sailing shorthanded, especially singlehanded.

I appreciate the feedback but "demonstration of new tech" that breaks the fundamental rules of sailing doesn't make any sense to this sailor. Cheers to all.

 

[hijan1]

Hi, I was looking for some background data:

To my knowledge a regular J-100 has a rating of 81, the electric version Eight Ball was rated 66, so a penalty of 15 for the electrics.

If rated in that division (as above, she was the only participant in the SH spinnaker division), Eight Ball would have been fourth in the DH spinnaker <69 division. Lindo was the only entry in the SH non-spin division, the boat (PHRF 69) finished 31 min later than Eight ball (corrected time). https://www.jibeset.net/show.php?RR=YRA_T007832369&DOC=r1&TYP=html

I guess the owner Scott is a very good sailor, he owns a rigging company (no sarkasm, just fyi).

Cheers Jan

 

[everydaysailor]

Yesterday was a workout. Light air kite work all day, and towards the finish, against heavy current.
Every physical move to adjust, hoist, trim etc usually resulted in a a loss of speed.
3 Expresses, Fugu and Arcadia separated, had a shot and gave it their all but came up a bit short. If she had made the cut off Bombora should have won overall- even if she had not corrected out over Eight Ball. No way that would feel right otherwise.
2 dNf's but still a great weekend. Thank you SSS.
CJordan