Autopilot Angst

[todd22123]

I would not homer for RM, however, I can think of at least two boats that have won overall SHTP using predecessor to current RM system. Assuming one defines value in terms of a combination of time, money, and effectiveness, then RM has a role.

RM ram failures are common, so I hope the Pelagic drive will be able to be used with the RM EV systems and it's parents. I suspect, as WBChristie said, one can just turn up the hardcover time. Although this sounds crazy, it is a trivial menu adjustment to play around with motoring in calm conditions.

Todd

 

[BobJ]

Agreed - the input I've read and heard is that calibration issues with B&G and especially NKE are at least as challenging as what we've been discussing above.

There's a helpful RM Tech Forum where problems like yours have probably already been discussed - this is the good side of their huge user base. If you need to send the component(s) back to RM's service facility, my experience is they are turned around quickly and for this kind of thing, without charge. Parts and support are readily available, and there's a vast resale market should you decide to take up BASE jumping instead.

 

[solosailor]

It does confirm my instinct to stay the hell away from the Raymarine AP (with apologies to all the RM devotees out there), or more generally from mixing AP components.

The Raymarine APs have proven themselves for many years from the ST4000+, the X5 and the Evo. All use the same drives and share displays, etc. I know there have been drive failures but I've never had one let me down and I've done quite a bit of offshore including LongPac and SHTP overall wins and so have many others.

There is not a comparable system on the market..... X-5 and EVO are/were less than $1200. I paid <$900 for a new EVO at the boat show. For the price of an NKE you could have 4+ total systems of Raymarine (or two and another spinnaker !). Don't get me wrong, if you've got the coin to drop $6k+ on the NKE - go for it, you won't be disappointed. Still you need another backup or two for the SHTP.

 

[Harrier]

I agree 100% with solosailor. Got a new EVO thing before the '14 SHTP. It came with a new 4000 ram (which is what I wanted to add to my "golf bag" of spares).
Never did install the EVO...just stuck with my 6002 w/X5 system. Last minute changes before the race are no no's for me, so I didn't even install a new solar controller to replace the on-off type. I have since, and the improved controller does well. EVO is still in the box. Can't talk about the NKE or similar expensive ilk.
Used a Tillermaster and Atoms vane on my first SHTP (teehee). Tillermaster was a riot (!) with a chute up...but doable as long as you "baby sat" it. Went to faster Navico stand alone tiller pilot for the 2nd SHTP. Settled on the 4000 and 4000GP thereafter. Still have several Navicos (now Simrad) for backups....I think I should confer with Brian to learn about his system. Compatible with my SeaTalk instrumentation?????

 

[solosailor]

I think I should confer with Brian to learn about his system. Compatible with my SeaTalk instrumentation?????

Yes, it works with Raymarine brains..... I'll eventually add one of his drives to the arsenal, hear good things.

 

[tboussie]

Tom, Dura Mater has a Pelagic. Brian and I plan to take it out onto the Berkeley Circle to calibrate it this Friday. I look forward to a downwind life without fear, without that hyperventilation up on the bow as I feel my autopilot getting distracted and heading up into the wind. DM is 6700 lbs before chocolate and other equipment. You are welcome to come sailing w me to see what you think. Wouldn't you rather spend all that money on a new beemer?

Jackie,

How did it go with Brian on Friday? Did you have a chance to race with the Pelagic AP this weekend?

As for the money, why would I spend my hard-earned cash on a car that I drive every day when I can plow it into another vehicle I use no more than 20 times per year? Makes no sense.

Tom

 

[BobJ]

Yeah, funny that. After this (great) weekend Rags can have anything she wants. New standing rigging? Sure. Some sails? No problem. Halyards? Name the color.

I like my car too but all it (not she) gets is gas and oil. It's a loonie hobby we have.

 

[CRC1965]

Hi:
I'm the J/88 guy with the NKE and Octopus Drive (everything I state below is based on my reading, opinions and understanding which may have errors....and I am pretty new to this, have only had the boat since March)

I have been quite happy with it. In the LongPac when we had wind .. current draw was about 2 amp ish. The Octopus Drive is a big hunk of electric motor (it gets rebranded by the various companies.....I ordered mine through NKE so it has an NKE sticker on it...but it looks identical to the SD-10 etc). The morse cable that connects to your tiller is equally beefy.....and gets used to push larger outboards around. Neither of these looks like they would fail. Apparently designed for the 15,000 lb or so displacements boats.. My tiller loads are quite small. A major consideration is how you connect this to the rudder. If possible a connection that does not involve your tiller is nice, because you then have another backup system. Could there be some small plastic part that will fail after 1,000 miles....absolutely....but most of the moving parts are tucked below in "safety"

Hard over time....!!!!! keep in mind the cable drive mounts much closer to rudder, than the tiller pilots. What you care about is degrees of rudder changer per second. Which gets quickly complicated because as you move closer to to the rudder on the tiller you leverage goes down, so current draw goes up.....long story short, and many excel spreadsheets later....this is quite quick. Much more important than hard over time is how well the autopilot system will react to swell and how quickly it will correct. Once things really start to load up and a broach starts its too late for anything. The NKE system drives the boat with kite up in 18-20 knots beautifully. I don't have many autopilots to compare to. I am also using the Pelagic Autopilot as a backup which is a very nice unit, made by a really great guy. Buy two!

Ok....some numbers
My left arm at standard position can develop (Easily) 138 foot*lbs (probably lots more when excited), and easily move the tiller 26 degrees per second.

The tiller pilots develop 160-300+ foot lbs or torque (the Pelagic is at the high end, the raymarine/simrad at lower end) but move at about 4-5 degrees per second.

The NKE develops a little over 200 ft*lbs, and moves 7 degrees per second. Some of the small hydraulics develop 100 foot lbs but move 16 degrees per second. Despite higher current draw I am pretty sure this speed is why they are used on the minis.

Regarding NKE and calibration, I am fiddling around to dial it in more, but it worked fine out of the box. The B&G displays are more attractive. I am sure there higher end autopilots would drive any boat equally well. The NKE has a little remote that if separated from the boat will put the boat head to wind. That gives me some degree of comfort (false though it may be).

The raymarine evo unit looks very appealing. The price point is way way way better and you could buy plenty of spare tiller pilots. I would like to think that the autopilot function of the NKE unit would drive a boat with kite up in swell much better, and that is why a bunch of the solo sailors use these units. But I don't have a comparison to say one way or the other.

Good luck with decisions.....

 

[Philpott]

Jackie, How did it go with Brian on Friday? Did you have a chance to race with the Pelagic AP this weekend? As for the money, why would I spend my hard-earned cash on a car that I drive every day when I can plow it into another vehicle I use no more than 20 times per year? Makes no sense. Tom

That is an excellent point about the car v the boat. I’ll reconsider everything with that in mind. I went out today and played with my new Pelagic on the Olympic Circle. It was an ebb tide and I think the wind was about 15 knots with maybe bigger gusts. Typical afternoon wind between 1 – 4pm. Since I am not accustomed to my autopilot holding its course, it was a bit disconcerting to find myself heading for Mt Tam and then heading for Mt Tam and then, wait! still heading for Mt Tam! To be honest, without all my usual kvetching and moaning it was quiet on Dura Mater today and a bit boring. So I made myself some coffee and drank it and then spilled it in the cockpit, all the while – yes, still heading toward Mt Tam. Turning back toward Berkeley, sailing downwind I decided to be wild and crazy. I pushed the red button and then the green button and Dura Mater's course shifted ever so slightly. I think that's what it's supposed to do, but it was an unexpected experience for me. The tiller wand didn’t shake and pop off the tiller, Dura Mater didn’t head up into the wind once: it was completely copacetic all the way home. I made a little video with my IPhone but deleted it by mistake, so I’ll have to do it again. The Pelagic was easier to manage than my phone.

 

[brianb]

Yeah, funny that. After this (great) weekend Rags can have anything she wants. New standing rigging? Sure. Some sails? No problem. Halyards? Name the color.

I like my car too but all it (not she) gets is gas and oil. It's a loonie hobby we have.

I have to agree with Bob. I had one of those small German machines for years but I routinely found myself stuck on 280N looking at the rear differential of a pickup truck at top speeds of 10 mph. Sure, I could beat nearly anything to the next wall of steel fog, 20 car lengths ahead, but why bother. Something clicked and I opted for investment in sails, rigging, and autopilots, (and more recently a new head). Way more fun blasting down the Bay at 5 kts with nothing but the occasional ferry, J-Boat, or a fog filled slot to contend with.

 

[hodgmo]

I have to agree with Bob. I had one of those small German machines for years but I routinely found myself stuck on 280N looking at the rear differential of a pickup truck at top speeds of 10 mph. Sure, I could beat nearly anything to the next wall of steel fog, 20 car lengths ahead, but why bother. Something clicked and I opted for investment in sails, rigging, and autopilots, (and more recently a new head). Way more fun blasting down the Bay at 5 kts with nothing but the occasional ferry, J-Boat, or a fog filled slot to contend with.

car = 'chandlery access resource'

 

[Wylieguy]

I have to agree with Bob. I had one of those small German machines for years but I routinely found myself stuck on 280N looking at the rear differential of a pickup truck at top speeds of 10 mph. Sure, I could beat nearly anything to the next wall of steel fog, 20 car lengths ahead, but why bother. Something clicked and I opted for investment in sails, rigging, and autopilots, (and more recently a new head). Way more fun blasting down the Bay at 5 kts with nothing but the occasional ferry, J-Boat, or a fog filled slot to contend with.

I, too agree with Bob, but wait, what did I just say???? Anyway it was a great weekend, even if a pickle dish was 8 or 9 boats ahead of my finish time. "NANCY" the boat can have anything she wants - spreaders, standing rigging, a jib, a chute. She is getting a new (call it main) sail in two weeks, so should be happy with that. The "real" Nancy is jealous.

 

[BobJ]

"NANCY" the boat can have anything she wants - spreaders, standing rigging, a jib, a chute.

As they say on the internet, "I see what you did there."

 

[jimb522]

NKE calibration complexities and costs

The Raymarine APs have proven themselves for many years from the ST4000+, the X5 and the Evo. All use the same drives and share displays, etc. I know there have been drive failures but I've never had one let me down and I've done quite a bit of offshore including LongPac and SHTP overall wins and so have many others.

There is not a comparable system on the market..... X-5 and EVO are/were less than $1200. I paid <$900 for a new EVO at the boat show. For the price of an NKE you could have 4+ total systems of Raymarine (or two and another spinnaker !). Don't get me wrong, if you've got the coin to drop $6k+ on the NKE - go for it, you won't be disappointed. Still you need another backup or two for the SHTP.

With regard to BobJ's and Solosailors observations I would point out a couple of issues. NKE Calibration is an issue, and if you are going to spend the bucks and time to purchase and install it, you want it to do what it is capable of. I dont see that a person new to NKE autopilots is going to be able to make any efficient progress doing it themself.
Cost, Candidly, your estimation of $6000 is about one-third of where you will be, installed on your boat, assuming you get the full monty system. Frankly, I looked at it kind of close to see what I felt I needed and ended up getting speed, regatta compass, wind, GPS, true wind, mast angle for rotating mast, rudder angle, oversize drive hydralic ram (all of which are sensors for the system computor) etc., and am doing some of the install myself, but not all of it. The NKE rep, Bob Congdon, a great guy, is coming down when we are ready to sail to get mine up and running. He is doing it for travel costs in an effort to make sure his product justifies the investment.
There are plenty of cheaper systems, but none of them will accurately steer a boat down-wind in a good breeze with larger waves like an NKE, or its primary competitor, B&G. The cost is similar between the two systems. Ryan Finn, who is working on my boat and competed in the 2004 race, thinks the NKE is gross overkill (financial and mechanical) for the SHTP, and that I could get by on a lot less. BUT, I believe almost every mini in the last tranatlantic race used NKE, and almost every big boat in the Vendee Globe used B&G. That says something about the two systems reliability and accuracy in extreme conditions that I find persuasive.
Ryan is probably right, but I tend to get overly involved (or perhaps submerged is a better word) in my projects. I do plan to do other shorthanded sailing in the boat besides SHTP, and I will snatch it off that boat and put it on something else if I decide this boat is not up to the SHTP, or if I decide and I just too over the hill to do the shtp myself. Damn you Ken Roper.
Jim

 

[CRC1965]

Gross Overkill.....too bad I named my boat already ;-)

As someone new to this I certainly accept that my boat nor my autopilot will reach their potential. However, I have seen a couple references to difficulty in calibrating the NKE system and I have found that NOT to be the case. Bob Cogdon helped out for a few hours to input wind correction tables. Compass calibration, rudder angel calibration, final wind angel calibration, speed calibration all handled easily maybe another hour or two. From there the main things to play with gain, rudder coef and counter rudder. All easy to do on fly to match the conditions. I have not been in the big surfing conditions. But beam reaching 25 knots in 8-10 foot seas, Downwind with kite up 18-20 knots in slot, close hauled.....the system drives the boat beautifully. I continue to tweak those three main parameters.

If I am missing something big, please enlighten me.

Chris

 

[jimb522]

Gross Overkill.....too bad I named my boat already ;-)

As someone new to this I certainly accept that my boat nor my autopilot will reach their potential. However, I have seen a couple references to difficulty in calibrating the NKE system and I have found that NOT to be the case. Bob Cogdon helped out for a few hours to input wind correction tables. Compass calibration, rudder angel calibration, final wind angel calibration, speed calibration all handled easily maybe another hour or two. From there the main things to play with gain, rudder coef and counter rudder. All easy to do on fly to match the conditions. I have not been in the big surfing conditions. But beam reaching 25 knots in 8-10 foot seas, Downwind with kite up 18-20 knots in slot, close hauled.....the system drives the boat beautifully. I continue to tweak those three main parameters.

If I am missing something big, please enlighten me.

Chris

Chris,
You make my point. Notice that I said "efficiently" calibrate the system. That few hours that Bob spent helping you probably gave you an insight that jumped you ahead a lot of time in figuring out the ins and outs of the system, and gave you a greater depth of knowledge. You are sailing your boat, apparently routinely, in weather I never see. The last 8 foot wave I have seen in person was in 1984 in the OSTAR. It is not that common in coastal Gulf of Mexico conditions. Your description of what conditions are apparently normal for you is intimidating to me, so I tend to do the "gross overkill" in anticipation. It would be a good name for a rock band too by the way.
Incidentally, I bought a handheld Standard Horizon VHF for $150.00 three days ago and I am still trying to make sense out of the owners manual. Maybe I have achieved hardening of the brain in my old age.
Jim

 

[jimb522]

Chris,
One of the attractions of the NKE system that I considered was something I read in their marketing literature that indicated that the software had a function to help the development of polar charts for the boat. That appealed to me as I hve a boat that there is absolutely no information on with regard to whatever performance it may have. I know your J109 (?) probably has a plethora of polar tables already computed for it, but have you any experience with this function of NKE on your boat, and if so, was it helpful?
Thanks,
Jim

 

[CRC1965]

Chris,
One of the attractions of the NKE system that I considered was something I read in their marketing literature that indicated that the software had a function to help the development of polar charts for the boat. That appealed to me as I hve a boat that there is absolutely no information on with regard to whatever performance it may have. I know your J109 (?) probably has a plethora of polar tables already computed for it, but have you any experience with this function of NKE on your boat, and if so, was it helpful?
Thanks,
Jim

Yes it does. I use a simple tablet and navigation software...... My boat is a J/88 not a 109....so it is new enough that although polar charts are available they are more "theoretical" than actual. The "best" way would be to have a matched boat and perform boat/boat comparisons. I am just starting to play with this software and I hope to use it to dial in the 90% performance level. I have had the pleasure of sailing with people who can dial a boat in quickly by feel; I am looking for some basic numbers so that when tired I can feel that I have the boat moving well....or know time to spend some effort to figure out why slow.

My experience from the Long Pac was that it was very easy when tired for it to take a while to recognize sub optimum performance when presented with the large amount of data present.....in my case being on the wrong tack ;-( for quite a few hours. So having some simple number to follow would have helped.

Good luck

 

[svShearwater]

A little more NKE praise...

My wife installed our NKE autopilot and instruments by herself. Not kidding. Just a few calls to Bob for some clarifications during install. I was 3500 miles away at the time. Then as a sea trial of the installation, without exaggeration we literally sailed across the Atlantic. 3300 miles and averaged 170 mpd with autopilot steering 99% of the trip.

We know have over 10k miles with that setup. The anemometer wand did blow off while reading 38 knots and the replacement only worked for a week in Florida (hmm... Wonder why?) both were replaced under warranty.

 

[CRC1965]

A little more NKE praise...

My wife installed our NKE autopilot and instruments by herself. Not kidding. Just a few calls to Bob for some clarifications during install. I was 3500 miles away at the time. Then as a sea trial of the installation, without exaggeration we literally sailed across the Atlantic. 3300 miles and averaged 170 mpd with autopilot steering 99% of the trip.

We know have over 10k miles with that setup. The anemometer wand did blow off while reading 38 knots and the replacement only worked for a week in Florida (hmm... Wonder why?) both were replaced under warranty.

Hey, do you know how to pull up saved Pilot profiles.... I have a few setups with particular gain/rudder etc. settings that work great for a point of sail....have saved them with a name....but can't seem to figure out how to pull them up??