-
Ahoy and Welcome to the New SSS Forums!!
As you can see, we have migrated our old forums to new software. All your old posts, threads, attachments, and messages should be here. If you see anything out of place or have any questions, please scroll to the very bottom of the page and click "Contact Us" and leave a note with as much detail as possible.
You should be able to login with your old credentials. If you have any issues, try resetting your password before clicking the Contact Us link.
Cheers - Bryan
Does the Delorme InReach Explorer satisfy the Comm reqs for Transpac?
- Thread starter bizirka
- Start date
pogen
Sailing canoe "Kūʻaupaʻa"
The Delorme is being considered for use at the tracker device, either by rental from the Race Committee, or by using one's own, but this has not been finalized. Hopefully this will be done in a few weeks.
A satphone is nice to have to get weather info if nothing else.
I expect the final RRCs should have some requirement that in addition to the tracker and VHF, some means of obtaining offshore weather info be provided, either SSB, SSB receive-only, or satphone. This has been the case in the past.
An SSB receive only radio can be very cheap, like $100 new.
A satphone is nice to have to get weather info if nothing else.
I expect the final RRCs should have some requirement that in addition to the tracker and VHF, some means of obtaining offshore weather info be provided, either SSB, SSB receive-only, or satphone. This has been the case in the past.
An SSB receive only radio can be very cheap, like $100 new.
tiger beetle
N/M 45 Tiger Beetle
I'm unaware that there was ever a requirement to be able to receive weather data while at sea. Can you point me to the rule that required this?
- rob/beetle
- rob/beetle
I'm with you Beetle. Can't imagine anyone going to sea without some means, tho. I went to French Polynesia and back thru HI with nothing but a shortwave rcvr, but it would pick up the SSB high seas weather broadcasts in the northern hemisphere, as it had BFO capability. Mostly I used AM weather from WWV. Never have figured out how to get wx via my sat fone. Was shown how once, but forgot before I was able to use it on the race.
brianb
Olson 34 Driver
Yes it does. To be precise we are still closing with the software provider and conducting a physical test of some features, but we are certain we will go with the Delorme/Pinnacle-Tracking solution. There will be a daily check in requirement that involves the pressing of two buttons on the Delorme SE or Explorer units. This will fire off a ping of your position and will result in an email to the RC. Alternative methods can also be used - SSB/VHF to the Comm boat for example. The Comm plan is still in preliminary form but will include a full description. The prelim. version and the rules will be posted within a few hours on the SHTP page.
Regards,
Brian
brianb
Olson 34 Driver
My first Pac Cup I copied the weather data via Morse code.
For 2016 we will have a requirement that some means be aboard for weather data. This could be SSB or satellite based. The SSB receiver will be suggested. At least that is the way we are leaning presently. The comm plan is still gel-ing.
mike cunningham
Freedom 30 "Jacqueline"
Would the Lat/Lon specific 72 hr ocens forecasts provided upon request to delorme inreach units via e-mail be acceptable for "weather data". This would fit the "satellite based" category. This worked pretty well for me during the LongPac.
brianb
Olson 34 Driver
Hi Mike,
IS this a service you pay for ? The way to judge this is if the data they are sending you is not massaged by the provider, that is the weather info is no different than what one would obtain from NOAA wefax or public GRIB files then it is OK. If the provider is doing their own data interpretation than it would not be acceptable as it is now a custom forecast.
Regards,
Brian
pogen
Sailing canoe "Kūʻaupaʻa"
A rule of thumb widely applied is if you pay for it, it is not allowed, even if it is just repackaged NOAA data. They are still doing work for you preparing a targeted report, and saving you effort.
Saildocs works really well, is free, and covers pretty much all the NOAA products. You can also set up a subscription so that various reports and GRIBS are mailed to you every day or twice a day or whatever.
Saildocs works really well, is free, and covers pretty much all the NOAA products. You can also set up a subscription so that various reports and GRIBS are mailed to you every day or twice a day or whatever.
brianb
Olson 34 Driver
Ocens - check on possibilities
I have sent a query to Ocens to see what they provide exactly. It appears that their data download is not massaged but that they provide applications for PC's/Macs that do weather display and massaging of the data. That would be no different than a program like Expedition or some types of GRIB viewers. I have asked for a specific explanation of the data as well as if they would have an interest in a fleet deal.
This is really a grey area. One could argue that requesting data from a specific region via an email service constitutes data massaging. Sailmail comes to mind, you pay for that after all.
I believe the Mini Transat limits weather data to what can only be copied off an SSB receiver. All the boats carry a small SSB rcvr and spend some time during the day getting weather information. Maybe someone on here has better insight into those requirements ?
Brian
I have sent a query to Ocens to see what they provide exactly. It appears that their data download is not massaged but that they provide applications for PC's/Macs that do weather display and massaging of the data. That would be no different than a program like Expedition or some types of GRIB viewers. I have asked for a specific explanation of the data as well as if they would have an interest in a fleet deal.
This is really a grey area. One could argue that requesting data from a specific region via an email service constitutes data massaging. Sailmail comes to mind, you pay for that after all.
I believe the Mini Transat limits weather data to what can only be copied off an SSB receiver. All the boats carry a small SSB rcvr and spend some time during the day getting weather information. Maybe someone on here has better insight into those requirements ?
Brian
http://www.ocens.com/SpotCast-Weather-P526C26.aspx#Description
It doesn't look as though there is any interpretation. I was planning on using this and a SSB receiver.
It doesn't look as though there is any interpretation. I was planning on using this and a SSB receiver.
pogen
Sailing canoe "Kūʻaupaʻa"
The SailMail service is paid for as it provides internet connectivity and email hosting via SSB, but no data. This is the same as your basic satphone rental or DeLorme rental. So, not information, just a means for getting information.
SailDocs is a free service that can be accessed from SailMail or any other email means, and sends only NOAA data such as GRIBS and text forecasts. All this is allowable information.
For DeLorme, it is a mixed bag, there are a number of services available. SpotCast by OCENS on DeLorme seems to only provide the NWS data, localized to your present position as determined by the DeLorme itself.
http://www.ocens.com/SpotCast-Weather-P526.aspx
I would guess that this is probably OK. There are other services from DeLorme, like weather predictions from Forecast.io, which is a third-party provider, and a whole bunch of value-add products from OCENS that are almost certainly not OK.
As far as SSB wx goes, all the forecasts and weatherfaxes available are listed here,
http://weather.noaa.gov/fax/ptreyes.shtml
and there are a lot of text reports like this
http://weather.noaa.gov/pub/data/raw/fz/fzus56.kmtr.cwf.mtr.txt
And whether one gets the data via SSB ( 4 - 12 MHz technology ) or satellite ( 1.6 GHz technology) can be left up to the skipper.
SailDocs is a free service that can be accessed from SailMail or any other email means, and sends only NOAA data such as GRIBS and text forecasts. All this is allowable information.
For DeLorme, it is a mixed bag, there are a number of services available. SpotCast by OCENS on DeLorme seems to only provide the NWS data, localized to your present position as determined by the DeLorme itself.
http://www.ocens.com/SpotCast-Weather-P526.aspx
I would guess that this is probably OK. There are other services from DeLorme, like weather predictions from Forecast.io, which is a third-party provider, and a whole bunch of value-add products from OCENS that are almost certainly not OK.
As far as SSB wx goes, all the forecasts and weatherfaxes available are listed here,
http://weather.noaa.gov/fax/ptreyes.shtml
and there are a lot of text reports like this
http://weather.noaa.gov/pub/data/raw/fz/fzus56.kmtr.cwf.mtr.txt
And whether one gets the data via SSB ( 4 - 12 MHz technology ) or satellite ( 1.6 GHz technology) can be left up to the skipper.
mike cunningham
Freedom 30 "Jacqueline"
This is exactly the report I used for the Long Pac. I assumed it was permissible because it did not involve routing it simply provided conditions albeit localized conditions to some unknown extent.
We could probably start a lengthy legal debate re "paying" for services. Heck, I have to pay for the equipment to receive the broadcasts. Some competitors may be able to afford a much better rig than mine in order to reliably obtain broadcasts or other "freely available" data. So if you were to tell me everyone may only have specific equipment and obtain data from a specific place, while I don't like it, I accept it. Otherwise I think the general rule outlawing routing data or specially massaged helper data is, perhaps, the fairest way to go.
No way I am trying to start that lengthy debate!!
ronnie simpson
Peterson 34 "QUIVER"
At what point does the race committee and the participants begin to talk about amending the long-standing rules of not receiving any outside assistance? it seems that at the time that rule was written, it was very valid, though now it seems not so much...
When that rule was likely written, having a shore based router - let alone a way of communicating with that shore based router - would have been a distinctive advantage over the average Corinthian amateur, though very expensive. Disallowing outside assistance was a way to even the playing field.
Now, in the day and age of 2015, it's a distinct advantage - based on the rules of no outside assistance - to have a broadband receiver and dedicated computer running complex routing software such as Adrena or Expedition. If you don't have that equipment, you're at a clearly definable disadvantage. One way to even the playing field, from a weather and routing standpoint, would be to allow your homie to give you some advice over the (sat) phone, or via a text message to your Delorme FOR FREE. Technically, this would make outside assistance the very CHEAPEST way of receiving weather data. I can recall two Singlehanded Transpacs where I had little or no weather data at times, but had a functioning sat phone and had to resist every temptation to "cheat" and ask my friend for advice. I can't imagine everyone resists that urge, all the time, every time. When I was on the Moore 24, I was literally hand-steering blind with no weather data - probably not very safe - but had a working sat phone. That is stupid.
Commanders Weather will route you brilliantly to Hawaii for a couple of hundred bucks, and will package daily data and routing advice, based on your polars. Combine that expense with a sat phone or a Delorme and professional shore-based routers are now cheaper (and arguably infinitely better) than any old school solution such as an SSB. I'm sure someone could make the argument that someone could up the game and get Marcel van Triest or Stan Honey to route them from shore at great personal expense, but honestly, if that's the make-or-break in the whole equation, you should be record-setting in maxi-trimaran's, not racing solo to Hawaii in 40-year old production monohulls.
Let's stop kidding ourselves that we're avoiding an arms race within the SHTP by disallowing outside support and discouraging (through monetary fee) outside sponsorship, local industry support, etc.
Just my 2 cents
When that rule was likely written, having a shore based router - let alone a way of communicating with that shore based router - would have been a distinctive advantage over the average Corinthian amateur, though very expensive. Disallowing outside assistance was a way to even the playing field.
Now, in the day and age of 2015, it's a distinct advantage - based on the rules of no outside assistance - to have a broadband receiver and dedicated computer running complex routing software such as Adrena or Expedition. If you don't have that equipment, you're at a clearly definable disadvantage. One way to even the playing field, from a weather and routing standpoint, would be to allow your homie to give you some advice over the (sat) phone, or via a text message to your Delorme FOR FREE. Technically, this would make outside assistance the very CHEAPEST way of receiving weather data. I can recall two Singlehanded Transpacs where I had little or no weather data at times, but had a functioning sat phone and had to resist every temptation to "cheat" and ask my friend for advice. I can't imagine everyone resists that urge, all the time, every time. When I was on the Moore 24, I was literally hand-steering blind with no weather data - probably not very safe - but had a working sat phone. That is stupid.
Commanders Weather will route you brilliantly to Hawaii for a couple of hundred bucks, and will package daily data and routing advice, based on your polars. Combine that expense with a sat phone or a Delorme and professional shore-based routers are now cheaper (and arguably infinitely better) than any old school solution such as an SSB. I'm sure someone could make the argument that someone could up the game and get Marcel van Triest or Stan Honey to route them from shore at great personal expense, but honestly, if that's the make-or-break in the whole equation, you should be record-setting in maxi-trimaran's, not racing solo to Hawaii in 40-year old production monohulls.
Let's stop kidding ourselves that we're avoiding an arms race within the SHTP by disallowing outside support and discouraging (through monetary fee) outside sponsorship, local industry support, etc.
Just my 2 cents
Last edited:
I agree with Ronnie. I distinctly remember when Loran A became available in the 70's for yacht racers. It for the first time took yacht navigation to a different level. Prior to that, yacht racing navigation was 99 percent dead reckoning and ADF, with celestial navigation really only being used in races across the gulf of mexico to an island near cancun. Finding a shamen or witch doctor who could do celestial was difficult, and I learned enough of it to do it from the then equivalent of "celestial navigation for dummies" written by Mary Blewitt. Electronic navigation, with its precise accuracy, has certainly leveled the playing field, because we all know where we are now, safely, reliably and accurately, to an extent unimaginable not that long ago. I cant imagine flying my airplane without GPS, or sailing my boat without it. In the beginning, it was very expensive, and a lot of us could not afford it. Personally, I was against its use, as I felt, (and still do) that its use takes away from an essential sailor's skill that should be preserved, and for many years special trophies were given for racers who only used celestial. Not so much now.
My point is technology and time change reality. Todays reality is that we have equipment available to all, and it clearly makes far safer landfalls, and is overall a much safer environment when we all know exactly where we are. I think we should be able to use a service like iridium go, predict wind, which provides a program for optimal departure, and a routing program that gives you a fastest and most comfortable option for routing. This is a safety factor also (comfort means less heavy weather from the wrong direction in this case). It seems to me that some routing should be permitted. The iridium system gives you the same thing that expedition does as I understand it, but would be illegal now, i.e., grib files with current that it runs through a model and then sends out to subscribers. It basically gives you (I think) what grib files with expedition gives you, an optimal route for the predicted conditions. I am very much opposed to a system where we allow Stan Honey, or whoever, to direct or advise us, as it somehow seems that it isnt a single-handed race anymore. It becomes kind of like singlehanded, with a virtual crewmember, without having to feed him (except with money?) To summarize, I am for allowing digitizd weather and routing avialable by subscription to all, which is formulated by algorithims (sp?) as opposed to the same information which is then interpreted by a guru who may not be available to all.
Jim
My point is technology and time change reality. Todays reality is that we have equipment available to all, and it clearly makes far safer landfalls, and is overall a much safer environment when we all know exactly where we are. I think we should be able to use a service like iridium go, predict wind, which provides a program for optimal departure, and a routing program that gives you a fastest and most comfortable option for routing. This is a safety factor also (comfort means less heavy weather from the wrong direction in this case). It seems to me that some routing should be permitted. The iridium system gives you the same thing that expedition does as I understand it, but would be illegal now, i.e., grib files with current that it runs through a model and then sends out to subscribers. It basically gives you (I think) what grib files with expedition gives you, an optimal route for the predicted conditions. I am very much opposed to a system where we allow Stan Honey, or whoever, to direct or advise us, as it somehow seems that it isnt a single-handed race anymore. It becomes kind of like singlehanded, with a virtual crewmember, without having to feed him (except with money?) To summarize, I am for allowing digitizd weather and routing avialable by subscription to all, which is formulated by algorithims (sp?) as opposed to the same information which is then interpreted by a guru who may not be available to all.
Jim
BobJ
Alerion 38 "Surprise!"
In response to Ronnie and Jim (sorry Jiri), there's a big difference between the skipper receiving weather information (he then has to interpret) and the skipper receiving routing advice: "When you reach <lat> <lon> turn 10 degrees to port." The skipper's ability to interpret the weather is the big variable in a solo Hawaii race. If you cheat and call someone for routing advice during the race you're a cheater and might as well stay home.
If the DeLorme gadget will be required and it supplies NOAA data in some other form, it seems that receiving that data should be okay since everyone is receiving the same thing - just add it to the list of acceptable data. That's still different from calling Stan during the race and asking him when you should turn south. (From what I know of Stan he won't tell you anyway.)
We paid the big bucks before last year's Pacific Cup and bought a routing package from "one of the best." Because of rapid changes in the forecast right after the start, it was worse than useless. I did wonder how some of our competitors appeared to know about the changes so quickly, and we didn't.
If the DeLorme gadget will be required and it supplies NOAA data in some other form, it seems that receiving that data should be okay since everyone is receiving the same thing - just add it to the list of acceptable data. That's still different from calling Stan during the race and asking him when you should turn south. (From what I know of Stan he won't tell you anyway.)
We paid the big bucks before last year's Pacific Cup and bought a routing package from "one of the best." Because of rapid changes in the forecast right after the start, it was worse than useless. I did wonder how some of our competitors appeared to know about the changes so quickly, and we didn't.
Last edited:
Perhaps this isn't necessary - but, to be clear I started this thread to find the most affordable way (trying to avoid satphone/SSB) to stay within the rules NOT get around them.
I was hoping that the standard 'transat mini issued' SSB receiver (by the way is there anything better than the 10+ year old Sony ICF-SW7600GR) would satisfy the weather receiving portion of the rule and the delorme would satisfy the the position reporting and act as a backup for receiving weather.
Perhaps I am not following correctly, but I gather that the delorme weather provides a 'single grib' at a specific location (either current or a selected lat/lon).
I appreciate peoples expertise here!
I was hoping that the standard 'transat mini issued' SSB receiver (by the way is there anything better than the 10+ year old Sony ICF-SW7600GR) would satisfy the weather receiving portion of the rule and the delorme would satisfy the the position reporting and act as a backup for receiving weather.
Perhaps I am not following correctly, but I gather that the delorme weather provides a 'single grib' at a specific location (either current or a selected lat/lon).
I appreciate peoples expertise here!
pogen
Sailing canoe "Kūʻaupaʻa"
Well, don't look to see shoreside services like Commander's to be allowed. I think the DeLorme/Spotcast is probably fair game, as it is just providing a snapshot from an NWS forecast.
I also don't at all understand how we are "discouraging.. sponsors" with a fee. The whole point of sponsors is they contribute financially, or in kind, or else they are not sponsors.