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I have decided to buy a life raft..am I nuts?

Yes, a sextant is a good idea! I really dislike the idea of bobbing around with no idea where I'm at.

I do "security stuff" for a federal agency. Let's just say that: if the Navy has resumed teaching celestial navigation, they have a good reason. GPS is very, very vulnerable and fragile. Provided I'm not bouncing around too much, I consistently get +/- 15 nm positions on noon sites with even the cheapest Davis sextant, a good wristwatch (or WWV on the SSB), a copy of the Nautical Almanac, and a few hours of practice. Good enough to not miss Hawaii. Too bad we don't have eLORAN here in the States as a backup - but that's another topic.

These three videos are the best summary I've found on taking noon sites:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrAkrgZRb9Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWGOlpj4YwE&index=2&list=PLah9ocjQNN0YwXXY-w41kunzvsIOP1-bT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNWTN2LQ-TU
 
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Hell, I made it from Los Angeles to Nuku Hiva (30 days) in 1978 with nothing but a wrist watch, sextant and Radio Shack receiver for time hacks and WWV weather. Had taught myself to do the Air Navigation tables. Hit Nuku Hiva right on the nose. Anyone can do it. The book I learned from was a super simple "how to" by a Cal Tech grad. My criteria for accuracy was "within the visibility". The GPS is really super. I did use the Navy sat-nav system in '84 and '86. Positions available every 3 hours or so, with dead reckoning in between. Cost $1500 for the system, which I justified with my wife as reducing the "falling overboard danger" while using the sextant from the aft pulpit! Used that system til 1990....And many times I have used the hand held AM radio null system touted by Skip recently...still do, just to back up the GPS.
 
mike cunningham said:
I was going to buy a used - well pre-owned- Revere Offshore Commander. At the last minute I had another look at the equipment requirements and saw that the requirement reads

"A boat shall carry an inflatable life raft designed for saving life at sea with designed capacity for containing the entire crew. The raft shall
be SOLAS, ISAF, ISO 9650-1 or ORC approved.
Click to expand...

Where did you see that, Mike? I can't find it here: http://sfbaysss.org/resource/shtp2016/2016RRC_Final_111315.pdf. Are we looking at the same document? I too was considering the Revere Offshore Commander.
 
As long as war doesn't break out with Russia, China, or France the US sat. cluster should be sound.
Regarding your life raft, make sure the docs state it is in compliance with the required specs. The inspectors check for this. A manufacturers compliance statement can usually be obtained if it complies.
 
pbryant said:
Where did you see that, Mike? I can't find it here: http://sfbaysss.org/resource/shtp2016/2016RRC_Final_111315.pdf. Are we looking at the same document? I too was considering the Revere Offshore Commander.
Click to expand...

No we are not, You are looking at the right one and I am looking at the requirements for the 2015 LongPac which I foolishly assumed were the same. In fact they are different. Why? I haven't a clue. But the requirements for SHTP seem to be less rigorous than those for the LongPac.

The people in charge are confirming the rest of us are mentally sound by ensuring we can sort through all of this administrivia and reach the correct conclusion. Very very crafty.
 
Some former SHTP Race Chairs included a copy of the equipment list in the skippers' binder so you could look at the list while you were sailing to Hawaii. I'm sure all skippers did this faithfully.

Anyhoo, the LongPac includes doublehanders and the requirements are based on the NorCalORC (now USSER) spreadsheet. The SHTP list is faithful to SSS's roots . . .
 
brianb said:
As long as war doesn't break out with Russia, China, or France the US sat. cluster should be sound.
Regarding your life raft, make sure the docs state it is in compliance with the required specs. The inspectors check for this. A manufacturers compliance statement can usually be obtained if it complies.
Click to expand...

Thanks Brian. I apologize in advance for being tedious, but in compliance with what? I doubt any of the manufactures have a cert that says they're in compliance with: "the SHTP race rules." I assume you are referring to something else. Or do you mean that the life raft must have the features (self-erecting canopy, etc.) that are required, but not necessarily an ISO, SOLAS, etc. certification? I appreciate the inspector's problem of having to deploy the raft to verify it's configuration.

On the topic of GPS reliability, the Europeans and Asians are spending billions to build a backup in the form of eLORAN, which is terrestrial and much less prone to jamming and spoofing. Since we invented GPS, we're reluctant to admit its weaknesses. The greatest vulnerability is cyber attack on the "ground segment," which can come from anyone. There is also the constant threat of a coronal mass ejection (CME) taking out the entire constellation for days or weeks (along with the HF radio spectrum). We dodged a CME bullet in July 2012 that, had the Earth been re-positioned just seven degrees in its orbit, would have taken out a lot more than just GPS. And then there's always the risk of electrical failure. It's a "high impact/low probability" risk, but one worth spending about $200 and a little practice time to mitigate. Plus, there's a certain deep satisfaction in learning basic celestial navigation (which really is easy) and taking a sight that gets around all the technology, connecting one with the long history of navigation. On my own boat, I use both the U.S. GPS and Russian GLONASS constellations, but I still plan for the possibility of being left with only a watch, a compass, and a sextant. It's just prudent, in my opinion.

I've always felt that a big part of sailing is self reliance. Knowing how to navigate without advanced technology seems to be an element of that.
 
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Section 4.47 [a][5] states:

"The life raft shall have a valid certificate from the manufacturer or an approved servicing agent certifying that it has been inspected, that it complies with the above requirements and stating the official capacity of the raft. The certificate shall indicate that the life raft’s next inspection will not be required before July 23, 2016. The certificate shall be carried on the yacht."

The pertinent "above requirements" seem to include "designed specifically for saving life at sea...remain afloat and support the skipper even when filled with water...a canopy or cover, which automatically sets in place when the life raft is inflated. The cover shall be capable of protecting the occupant against injury from exposure and shall be a highly visible color."

Okay, that all seems fair enough but I doubt whatever certificate is produced will explicitly state "highly visible color" or anything about floating with x occupants even when flooded as these items will likely be assumed. So, meeting the specific language of the RRC's may prove difficult if someone runs into a picky inspector.

This sticking point could be remedied by simply removing the requirement that these items be listed on the certificate but leave them in the rules. Thus the raft would have to have a self erecting canopy of a highly visible color but the certificate would not need to state such.

Those who rent will probably not even think twice about this and I doubt it would become a real issue. But if I were buying a raft I, too, would want to make damn sure it was going to pass inspection.

I wonder if we can dig up some sample certificates, either from those who own rafts or from previous renters. Could be interesting to see just what is on the things.
 
The datasheet for the 4-person (Viking RescYou™ Pro) liferaft I've carried in two SHTPs is described here: http://admin.sds.viking-life.com/fileexplorer/fetchfile.aspx?id=17563

The certificate includes that it has 4 person capacity and complies with 'Type 1 Group A' of ISO 9650-1.

The liferaft contents didn't include all the SHTP-required signaling devices, so i bought the missing stuff separately and store it in my ditch bag. If you get one, i highly recommend you ask to see it packed.
 
As John suggests, if you're renting from Sal's you'll be GTG. If you're buying a new raft I'd consider getting something that meets the broader rules (Pacific Cup, etc.) since SHTP isn't the only rodeo around here. It will also be easier to re-sell.

If you're buying something used I'd show Sal (or whoever will service it) the ad first and make sure he can certify it. I've shown him a couple ads and he told me what the likely issues would be based on the raft's age and brand. Often older rafts can't be recertified, even if they spent their entire lives "in Grandma's closet, untouched by human hands." According to Sal, valise rafts are also getting harder to recertify.

If it's a known brand and has an in-date certificate I can't imagine one of SSS's inspectors will have an issue with it.
 
hodgmo said:
The datasheet for the 4-person (Viking RescYou™ Pro) liferaft I've carried in two SHTPs is described here: http://admin.sds.viking-life.com/fileexplorer/fetchfile.aspx?id=17563

The certificate includes that it has 4 person capacity and complies with 'Type 1 Group A' of ISO 9650-1.

The liferaft contents didn't include all the SHTP-required signaling devices, so i bought the missing stuff separately and store it in my ditch bag. If you get one, i highly recommend you ask to see it packed.
Click to expand...

I like this plan. Done.

With regard to pre-owned rafts some fellow is Washington State is trying to sell a raft manufactured in 1980...needs recert... ummm I don't think so.
 
mike cunningham said:
No we are not, You are looking at the right one and I am looking at the requirements for the 2015 LongPac which I foolishly assumed were the same. In fact they are different. Why? I haven't a clue. But the requirements for SHTP seem to be less rigorous than those for the LongPac.

The people in charge are confirming the rest of us are mentally sound by ensuring we can sort through all of this administrivia and reach the correct conclusion. Very very crafty.
Click to expand...

As well as the liferaft ones, the storm sail requirements for the 2016 Transpac are slightly different than the 2015 Longpac. If you buy based on Transpac requirements you might not meet requirements for other ocean races.
 
Practical Sailor has a good comparison of 6-man rafts here: http://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/33_4/features/At_Sea_Flotation_Devices_5422-1.html (2007).

I'm planning on buying the Viking RescYou 4-man raft, not the "Pro" version. Like the Practical Sailor reviewers, I don't like the high windage/wave exposure of the Pro canopy. If the raft inflates inverted, I'll have to flip it. It also weighs 11 pounds less than the Pro. Both have the same ISO 9650 Type I certs. I also do overwater flights as a commercial pilot, and the prospect of shoving 11 pounds less out a cabin door really matters (the aviation liferaft I use now is a joke).
 
pbryant said:
Practical Sailor has a good comparison of 6-man rafts here: http://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/33_4/features/At_Sea_Flotation_Devices_5422-1.html (2007).

I'm planning on buying the Viking RescYou 4-man raft, not the "Pro" version. Like the Practical Sailor reviewers, I don't like the high windage/wave exposure of the Pro canopy. If the raft inflates inverted, I'll have to flip it. It also weighs 11 pounds less than the Pro. Both have the same ISO 9650 Type I certs. I also do overwater flights as a commercial pilot, and the prospect of shoving 11 pounds less out a cabin door really matters (the aviation liferaft I use now is a joke).
Click to expand...

Agreed with your assessment. I ordered the RescYou 4-man raft, not the Pro.


Dirk "TIJD" - First 30JK
 
At risk of beating a dead horse...

I decided upon the Viking RescYou 4 man but have held off a buy to eek out the max cert duration on the new raft. In the meantime I have continued to check out other possibilities.

I came across this on Craigslist:

http://olympic.craigslist.org/bpo/5545429605.html

I got a very rapid response from the seller org which is

https://www.spindriftrowing.com/

I called and spoke to Sonya - she confirmed price and ISO cert.

This seems like a very attractive package for about $800 less than the Viking (valise models)

datasheet here: http://www.datrex.com/index/pdfdownloads/doc_id/8

Sonya is shipping some rafts to Monterey in coming days (apparently she is outfitting some rowers) and she needed a third order to get free shipment. I am seriously thinking of jumping on board.

Anyone have any thoughts?
 
Not to dissuade you, but last month I was at a Safety at Sea class in Annapolis MD and they demo'd a Viking RescYou Pro 4 person raft and it didn't deploy all that well. Now, I'm guessing this was a demo life raft that had been used dozens of times before and maybe it just needed to be changed out, but it didn't fully inflate and was missing the manual inflation pump (got a video of this if anyone wants to see it).

That being said, Viking RescYou Pro is one of the life rafts I am looking at for my own use when I hopefully do the SHTP in 2018.
 
Another cost to consider is the inspection and repacking. I have crawled around on the Viking and it seems quite tough and well built. The higher windage of the pro is offset by its ability to self right.......in theory.
Chris
 
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