Pacific Coast Shorthanded Boat

[AlanH]

This is something that I've thought about more than once but never really went anywhere with. I kind of doubt that there's anything like enough traction to make it fly, but....


If you all were to dream up a single or doublehanded boat that would be specific to the USA.... a boat that could handily do races in So Cal, SF Bay, The Columbia river, Puget Sound, Chesapeake Bay, Florida, New Orleans, The Great Lakes AND do the SHTP and the Bermuda 1-2...a "one design".... what would it look like?

Mini's are too small, don't really go to windward very well, break too much and cost too much.
Open 40's are WAY too big.
Figaro II's are in the ball park, but still way to expensive at $120K+

Probably the closest thing is the Express 27, but if you all were going to update it, how would you do it, what would you change, what would it look like?

 

[Ragnar]

Here is my wish list:
- LOA somewhere around 10 meters
- Direction stability
- Strong
- Well balanced performance: upwind, downwind, reaching
- Large main, small non-overlapping jib, masthead & fractional spinnakers, outboard shrouds
- No running backs
- Small cockpit w/ open transom
- Tiller
- One rudder
- Diesel inboard w/ retractable prop
- D/L 120-150
- Small
- Chines (because they look cool)
- Comfy interior with Headroom & "hang out" factor
- Canting keel or a small amount of water ballast would be great for upwind comfort, if the systems can be simple & robust
- Weird, but I'm ambivalent about sprits

I guess a few boats have aspects of this, but none have the whole package. Boats that dance around my wish list are ones like:
Olson 34, J92, J105, Col 32

 

[Critter]

Pogo 1050? Boy, if I had any money ...

 

[koh samia]

The new Pogo 30 looks very nice too... that swinging keel...

I've been reading a lot about pacific proas lately, first drawings of what could be a very interesting one: Bieker's 32' proa .

Different but very interesting...

 

[Ragnar]

Proa?

The new Pogo 30 looks very nice too... that swinging keel...

I've been reading a lot about pacific proas lately, first drawings of what could be a very interesting one: Bieker's 32' proa .

Different but very interesting...

Well, whomever created the preliminary drawings doesn't seem to know how a proa tacks. The rig has to swing 180 degrees.

I remember Rory Nugent's proa in Bermuda in 1979. There is a reason you don't see them around much. Sure enough he capsized less than a year later in mid-ocean.

 

[koh samia]

Well, whomever created the preliminary drawings doesn't seem to know how a proa tacks. The rig has to swing 180 degrees.

Agree, but it's a "pacific proa" design, and those keep the ama always to windward, so the boom rotates to leeward and then they hoist a jib on the 'new' bow.

And, if you google "Russell Brown" and "proa" you may find pages like:

http://www.clcboats.com/life-of-boats-blog/russell-brown-on-proas.html
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEFFS6cA5jQ

Pretty impressive..

I remember Rory Nugent's proa in Bermuda in 1979. There is a reason you don't see them around much. Sure enough he capsized less than a year later in mid-ocean.

Yes (an "atlantic proa" in this case, with the ama always to leeward), there have been lots of multihulls that have capsized or monohulls that lost their keel, including some proas, but I think that should not DSQ them.. just need to keep looking for the right settings for fast-safe trips...

In any case, I think the pacific proa (with ama always to windward) is more like a monohull with the keel just out of the water (ie: speed-dream) than a catamaran... and I really like it!

 

[AlanH]

I've always thought that 28 feet was about the right size.

Bepox 8.50

I think that Bepox is out of business. The 8.50's seem to go used in Europe for about 40-45,0000 euros. I think it would be really interesting to hand a list of parameters to a well known designer, maybe Jim Antrim and see what he came up with.

Personally?

27-29 feet
large mainsail, small foretriangle, running backstays not really wanted but I'd deal with it if the rig had to have them.
skippers choice of asymmetrical or symmetrical chutes
balanced performance... not just an offwind rocket
no canting keel, no water ballast. Simple boat
Disp/Length 120-150
sleeping facilities for two, some way to set up a stove at sea, an actual chart table, or nav station of some kind.
relatively small cockpit
coachroof extends 2 feet back over cockpit to form an alcove so you can be on deck, but really out of the spray.
tiller-steered

 

[BobJ]

I know non-overlappers are all the rage but I'd really miss being able to fly a #1 when it's light - and even sometimes when it's not. A bigger jib on a reaching lead (or JT) and reefed main is the bomb on my boat in the ocean.

When you guys get done describing your perfect boat it's a J/92 . . . but I'm biased!

 

[Phil MacFarlane]

I like Bob's boat but. Isn't the boring Wylie Cat 30 the perfect boat?

 

[Wylieguy]

Wyliecat 30

I like Bob's boat but. Isn't the boring Wylie Cat 30 the perfect boat?

I agree, naturally, about the Wyliecat 30 as the nearly perfect singlehander. Boring? Not really, but I understand different folks have different levels of boredom. For such a simple appearing rig, I can only say the infinite sail shape possibilities keep me pretty busy most of the time. Easy to be lulled into complacency. The pluses are pretty evident. Other than "boredom" there are a few minuses. One is the complication to vane steering created by the sheet when jibing and tacking. The "sheet of death" sweeps most anything above the lifelines as it comes across. I've thought out several ways to mitigate this issue, but since I don't plan a singlehanded sail to Hawaii, I haven't gone further than diagrams. The others I might cite are also minor - in my opinion. As always, I'm open to taking anyone interested out on a Wyliecat to se for themselves. I do caution that looking up at a mast that's not standing stiff and straight can bring a Viagra moment to some traditional sailors.
Pat Broderick "NANCY" Wyliecat 30 #28890

 

[AlanH]

I know non-overlappers are all the rage but I'd really miss being able to fly a #1 when it's light - and even sometimes when it's not. A bigger jib on a reaching lead (or JT) and reefed main is the bomb on my boat in the ocean.

When you guys get done describing your perfect boat it's a J/92 . . . but I'm biased!

Just because I want a small foretriangle doesn't mean that we can't have overlapping headsails!

BTW, I would also instigate a rule that said something along the lines of... "5 sails, maximum, plus a storm headsail if the rig carries a headsail, may be on the boat at the start of every race". OK, maybe 6 sails.

Something like the Class 950, but really an 850 to keep the costs down as much as possible. I'm honestly thinking back to how many years of combined SSS racing and thinking that the Moore 24 and the Express 27 were the most popular boats. There are reasons, obviously. So what would an Express 27, designed NOW, specifically for single or doublehanded sailing, look like?

Hey, just because the Wyliecats are practically unbeatable in the Bay doesn't mean a thing, right?

 

[Phil MacFarlane]

A very nice offer Pat thanks. I've sailed on one and I do think there the perfect boat for short or single handing. I'm just not smart enough yet to own one.
Alan, the 650 mini class only allows eight sails. One must be a trisail and one a storm jib. You gotta have a main so that leaves five. Most have a code zero. So that leaves room for two jibs and two kites or what ever you think you might need.

The more I think about that Wyliecat...

 

[BobJ]

I think the biggest advantage to the WylieCat is the number of them in SSS and the chance to race one-design. That potential exists for the J/105's as well, perhaps as a double-handed division. If most of the 105's who've done our races came out together there would be enough. OD racing, especially on SSS-type courses, is more fun than racing handicapped.

Regarding what a modern-day Express 27 might look like, I could see it being a sprit boat to make solo spinnaker work easier, and maybe more nicely finished inside, but it's a great boat as-is. I'd really want an inboard though.

I know the Moores do fine offshore but that three extra feet in the E-27 makes a huge difference.

If I couldn't own my boat I'd probably own an E-27 or Olson 30 - but I'd still want the sprit. It has spoiled me.

 

[Wylieguy]

Wyliecat, etc.

A very nice offer Pat thanks. I've sailed on one and I do think there the perfect boat for short or single handing. I'm just not smart enough yet to own one.
Alan, the 650 mini class only allows eight sails. One must be a trisail and one a storm jib. You gotta have a main so that leaves five. Most have a code zero. So that leaves room for two jibs and two kites or what ever you think you might need.

The more I think about that Wyliecat...

Alan, There are two on the market, "Sylkie" (see Lat. 36 Classies) and mine (quietly if the right buyer comes along). What I'd really like is a Wylie-style boat around 21/22 feet. A "drop keel" so I could keep it on a trailer, day sail/race. I'm pretty much finished with any ocean racing beyond the Farallones or HMB.
Gordie and I have been talking about converting an appropriate hull, but haven't come to any definite conclusion. I thinking something like a Venture 21 hull (I know, I know! But a well-prepared and sailed V21 will plane.), but Gordie's not very enthused. I have a Merit 22 someone donated to the cause, but I'm not sure it's the hull form I'm looking for
In the meantime if you'd like to join in on a GGYC or SYC Mid-Winter in Jan/Feb/March, let me know.
Pat

 

[AlanH]

How about a Wyliecat 27 with a long strut/bulb for a keel?

I hate to lose the spinnakers, though.
Wyliecat 27 with a relatively ginormous sprit and a fractional assy?

 

[BobJ]

They make an 18 (up to 21') that planes. No kite though.

 

[Ragnar]

Personally?

27-29 feet
large mainsail, small foretriangle, running backstays not really wanted but I'd deal with it if the rig had to have them.
skippers choice of asymmetrical or symmetrical chutes
balanced performance... not just an offwind rocket
no canting keel, no water ballast. Simple boat
Disp/Length 120-150
sleeping facilities for two, some way to set up a stove at sea, an actual chart table, or nav station of some kind.
relatively small cockpit
coachroof extends 2 feet back over cockpit to form an alcove so you can be on deck, but really out of the spray.
tiller-steered

I really like this list. Down here we do spend a lot of time going upwind. Offshore. In Winter. I'd like more waterline. Also, I really like a place to stand up down below. My back can only take so much.

 

[pogen]

what would an Express 27, designed NOW, specifically for single or doublehanded sailing, look like?

Like a Figaro II?

 

[Philpott]

Jim Antrim is building a boat with Cree Partridge at the Berkeley Marine Center for the SF2SF race in 2015. Of course it's bigger than 27' by a bit.

 

[JAMcDonald]

The Seascape 27 looks pretty promising. Even "affordable" (60k sans sails & electronics, not including shipping or and import duty if any).