Power-Assisted Sailing - the Slippery Slope

[solosailor]

This thread is to put out information to the SSS members about a slippery slope that in my opinion has now become an edge of a cliff.

This has to do with one of the US Sailing rules which is:

52. MANUAL POWER: A boat’s standing rigging, running rigging, spars and movable hull appendages shall be adjusted and operated only by the power provided by the crew.

I think RRS 52 is a vitally important rule as it limits the operation of a boat to the crew.

So the slippery slope is this:

Should the SSS allow a PHRF rated boat with partial or fully powered sail controls to race along with those that use manual power?

I am very adamant about not racing against boats where the person doesn’t need to hoist nor physically trim the sails.

The SSS has already allowed power-assisted devices that would break rule 52 by allowing them in our Standing Sailing Instructions for a number of years now.

There are already boats in the fleet that use powered winches while sailing with the SSS.

Stored energy and power assist has been out there for some time… canting keels, powered above-deck winches, etc.

The PHRF committee has been rating boats “with” non-manual powered devices for many years. I think the benefit would be even more amplified while singlehanding vs. the fully crewed “rating” the PHRF issues.

So the slippery slope starts with a few powered halyard winches, then jib winch and now the slope becomes a cliff ….. there is a boat entered in Saturdays Around the Rocks Race with a fully powered sail handing system.

By fully powered I mean ALL the sail handling is power driven and controlled via a handheld remote. The below deck fuller, self-tacking jib sheet, jib-boom rotation, jib traveler, main trailer & sheet, halyards, backstay, vang, outhauls, etc. are all fully powered. The only above deck powered winch you can access and ease a control line manually is the cabin top halyard winches. There is NO WAY to manually trim or ease the sails as all single-line sheets, etc. disappear below deck to its powered winch.

I think the SSS Mission Statement has some key works that back up my opinion and they are “fair”, “equitable” and “sportsmanlike”.

The Singlehanded Sailing Society (SSS) was conceived to provide a forum where sailors and others interested in the sport of singlehanded sailing could share their ideas and experiences. It is the intent of the SSS to make it possible for such sailors to compete in seaworthy sailing vessels of various types and designs on a fair and equitable basis. The purpose of the races is to provide an organized arena in which ideas, equipment, designs, and vessels specifically created, built, modified, or equipped for long distance singlehanded racing may be tested and evaluated through friendly sportsmanlike competition. The development of personal skill in singlehanded sailing is encouraged through sailing events and seminars.

My personal opinion is the SSS shouldn’t allow boats rated with powered devices to race using them but if they do they should be in their own division and not eligible for the overall trophies.

What say you?

 

[Tchoupitoulas]

So I'm racing in an SSS event, up the city front. Singlehanded. In Starbuck. Tacking the 125%. Hi Scott Easom! I think you got me.

 

[BobJ]

So far the power-assist isn't helping Scott in the Friday night CYC series. His line in division is 7/7, 4/6, 1/6, 3/5, and 4/6. And we're talking about Scott Easom.

To Greg: We already had this discussion, both by e-mail with the SSS board and in person last weekend. Other than you, the skipper who ranted the most against powered winches hasn't done an SSS race in 10 years. So maybe it's not as big a concern to the majority of active racers.

Scott apparently sees a market for these semi-automated boats. I think the J/100 is the fifth one he's done. I'd support a separate division for them, if and when they show they can beat the non-powered-winch boats. Otherwise I think it's a way to keep some folks racing who otherwise couldn't. In that way it actually levels the playing field and allows for more participation, which we need especially in the singlehanded divisions.

I am a little surprised that Eight Ball is entered in RTR with the standard J/100 PHRF rating of 87. The PHRF meeting minutes have not been posted since January so I can't read what PHRF's logic was. I'm told that when Soozall (King 40) did a full powered conversion, PHRF hit its rating 19 seconds/mile.

Finally, I can't help but feel like Surprise! is a target of this. I installed a second powered winch in good faith, based on SSS's and OYRA's long-standing modification of Rule 52 allowing their use. I declared the winches on my certificate when the boat was first rated. If you successfully lobby to exclude their use, I'll probably stop racing in SSS.

Are you racing Outsider on Saturday?
.

 

[brianb]

I would agree with Greg. Full powered sail controls is quite an advantage. We should at least put a star next to boats so equipped and consider an alternate scoring system.

Brian

 

[BobJ]

Then you should put a star next to the WylieCat 30s and "consider an alternate scoring system" for them as well. They also enjoy significant ease-of-operation over other boats when racing singlehanded. The advantage they enjoy in our races is well-documented.

 

[brianb]

I disagree. PHRF should adjust their (Wylie 30's) rating accordingly. They are all manual, but certainly have a great advantage with minimal sail handling. The issue PHRF would have, with a rating adjustment is similar to doing the same with a powered gear boat. How do you model , in a performance program, a vessel with reduced crew energy per mile, and reduced errors due to simplicity of operation ? The variables are too vast. If the club wants to pursue a path with the PHRF committee to alter Wylie Cats, that sounds reasonable. Boat owners should do so as well. Powered vessels need some thought before scoring begins.

Brian

 

[BobJ]

It sounds like we do agree. Based on observed performance, PHRF would probably adjust the WC30 rating again if any of us brought an appeal. I've just chosen not to be that person.

Similarly, PHRF should adjust Eight Ball's rating to account for any performance advantage provided by the powered gear. But so far, that performance advantage has not been observed. PHRF ratings are based on observed performance, not a "performance program" (VPP).
.

 

[Travieso]

It would be great to learn the history of the introduction 1.c.iii to our SSIs. 1.c.i and 1.c.ii are very narrow in their exclusions, and iii comes along and blows up rule 52. From looking at NCPHRF there are only 2 boats with declared power winches and one of them doesn't race SSS. So again, I'm not clear of when or why the iii exclusion got added. My suggestion would be to either make iii much more narrow or create an 'unRule 52' class for folks that want to innovate and experiment outside the boundaries of the rule.

From reviewing the PHRF rules, there is no indication on the rating impact of power assisted anything. Additionally 1.c.i and 1.c.ii have no impact on rating, but 1.c.iii assumes a third party will provide the right correction.

An interesting discussion here about how IRC dealt with it, with some familiar names. I don't see any similar language with regards to PHRF ratings. http://archive.sailingscuttlebutt.com/news/09/0630a/

At least the IRC rule is declarative in their allowance:
"
15 MANUAL POWER
15.1 RRS 52, Manual Power, shall not apply. This Rule may be amended by Notice of Race.
15.2 (a)The use of stored power for the hoisting of mainsails, or the reefing or furling of sails
need not be declared.
(b) Boats using stored power solely for the adjustment or operation of backstays shall
declare this to the Rating Authority.
(c)Boats using stored power for the adjustment or operation of running rigging other
than as noted in Rules 15.2(a) & (b) shall declare this to the Rating Authority.
"

I could envision the SSS narrowing 1.c.iii to the equivalent of 15.2(a) of IRC and disallowing the rest. Or provide a full IRC division. There are enough IRC rated boats in the Bay to make that a better option.

 

[Submarino]

On Saturday I saw a nice Alerion 33 with all the powered works and met the skipper. Quite impressive and competing against him would be fine with me because he is old enough to be my dad or grandfather. The assisted devices will allow him to continue sailing much longer than without them.

We have different physical contributory capabilities due to injuries and aging, and that rate is not the same across skippers.

Sailing can be hard on the body and joints and if you need electro mechanical assistance, go right ahead.

If you are a young and fit, I would question your need and use. And, any successes would be clouded in my book by your "bionics."

For one design, definitely not unless everyone else has powered controls.

I would say let it play out until a boat regularly demonstrates a significant advantage in overall standings.

A level playing field can be difficult to achieve in the SSS, because most are not sailing One Design and that results in a lot of variability. Some have a lot of useful electronics, others have carbon fiber this & that, others have new or various sails, others a better boat for the conditions, and etc. At the end of the day, you race yourself and your fellow sailors know where you really stand.

I think the Wyliecat 30's rating is OK because the skippers are not spring chickens and they beat me usually because of better strategy & tactics.

I am very hesitant to raise issues with boats because of a particular design trait. I always ask myself, "were it not for that boat or feature, would they have beaten me?" Most of the time, skill & experience of the skipper/crew (& sometimes chance) were the main reasons.

 

[solosailor]

To Greg: We already had this discussion, both by e-mail with the SSS board and in person last weekend. Other than you, the skipper who ranted the loudest against powered winches hasn't done an SSS race in 10 years. So maybe it's not as big a concern to the majority of active racers.

That is exactly what I wanted to find out.

Finally, I can't help but feel like Surprise! is a target of this. I installed a second powered winch in good faith, based on SSS's and OYRA's long-standing modification of Rule 52 allowing their use. I declared the winches on my certificate when the boat was first rated. If you successfully lobby to exclude their use, I'll probably stop racing in SSS.

Not a target at all as I totally forgot you even had them. This was brought to a head in my mind by the "fully" automated powered operation of a boat that has now been developed. I would never suggest that you are not one to play above board and I have huge respect for you as honorable competitor. This is simply my personal opinion that sailing is a sport, not an activity, and therefore one needs to manually power the sail handling.

I have the exact feeling on the opposite end and if the SSS allows a boat with full power sail handling controls to race against the general fleet of manual powered boats I will no longer race with the SSS or at least the fleet those boats are in. As to if I'll compete Saturday I'm up in the air as I had singlehanded the last few years and looked forward to sailing doublehanded this year. With the social bubble rule in effect I don't really I'll have available crew or be comfortable with wearing a mask while racing.

 

[solosailor]

Sailing can be hard on the body and joints and if you need electro mechanical assistance, go right ahead.

I agree, just not for the race track. How is it fair that someone gets to short-tack up the city front and be totally fresh for a spinnaker hoist at the weather mark while you can barely get the spin bag out of the companionway to hoist because your arms are already toast?

Here is a though experiment..... If you were into racing bicycles but you now can't keep up with the crowd and it hurts physically to race. Would anyone suggest that it's OK to have a powered hub wheel to help you compete?

 

[BobJ]

Thank you for your kind words.

Is bicycle racing in general decline like sailboat racing has been? If so, they'd start looking for ways to keep the racers out there.

Again, our rating system is based on observed performance. Most of us agree it's not ideal but it's what we have. If we observe these power-assisted boats having an actual performance advantage over non-power-assisted boats, then skippers can appeal their ratings. That's why I immediately went to Eight Ball's race results, which I will continue to watch. Same with Another Girl, Bella and yes, Surprise!

Here's another thought experiment: You and I are both long-term SSS racers who have supported and helped run the club over the years. We're both (mostly) singlehanders. If we both walked away over this issue, as I've said I might, that's two more long-time singlehanders who are gone.

Instead, what if we turn this around and ask what the Singlehanded Sailing Society can do to encourage more skippers to singlehand? (We have no trouble attracting doublehanders.) Would it help to allow, and even encourage boats that are easier to singlehand? How about allowing more boats with power-assisted steering devices?

 

[brianb]

It is quite obvious that a boat with power assisted sail controls has an advantage. Just like E bikes have an advantage. Why is that even in doubt ? I guess it is open season on going all electronic compliments of the our PHRF committee. What prevents me from having full control of steering and sail trim from an advanced autopilot ?

As far as older people racing, or folks with injuries, let us open a class of power assisted vessels, or have masters division like so many other sports. So simple. I am 69, have a rota-tor cuff injury in the left arm, and a right knee I cannot kneel on, or bend too far. I am happy to continue to race in an no power assisted vessel. If the time comes where the aspirin no longer helps I would be happy to sail in a masters class - or power assisted class.

 

[BobJ]

I submit it has an advantage in being easier to sail. But does that advantage lead to better race results or just maintaining participation? If better race results, we have an existing system to adjust for that: a rating appeal.

My smiley up above is because the autopilots are indeed becoming quite advanced - and are also using stored energy. Should we all go back to wind vanes and bungee cords?

 

[Travieso]

I submit it has an advantage in being easier to sail. But does that advantage lead to better race results or just maintaining participation? If better race results, we have an existing system to adjust for that: a rating appeal.

My smiley up above is because the autopilots are indeed becoming quite advanced - and are also using stored energy. Should we all go back to wind vanes and bungee cords?

Bob, that is not quite right. PHRF doesn't rate for shorthanded advantage. As I mentioned in my other comment, an IRC class might be the ticket as it considers both stored power assistance and shorthanded ratings. Create a separate class. Maybe we all eventually migrate there, who knows.

 

[Joyride]

It would be great to learn the history of the introduction 1.c.iii to our SSIs. 1.c.i and 1.c.ii are very narrow in their exclusions, and iii comes along and blows up rule 52.

Since I wrote 1.c.iii let me give you my perspective. During a race last year, someone complained that a young healthy guy (relatively speaking) was short tacking up the city front using power winches. As I understood our original intent of allowing powered winches, it was to aid people as they age, who still want to race but aren't the young person they once were. So it was conceived as something that wouldn't be invoked often.

To address this in 2020, the SSS Board approved the change to 1 c iii from the 2019 version of "Powered winches, hydraulics, or furling devices – only on boats that have declared this information on their PHRF application and have been rated accordingly. This modifies RRS 52." to the 2020 version "Powered winches, hydraulics, or furling devices – only on boats that have declared this information on their PHRF application and have received a PHRF rating that specifies allowable usage for the powered winches. This modifies RRS 52." Thus we put the onus on the PHRF committee. Thus having powered winches doesn't mean you can use them, unless your PHRF certificate specifically says this is the rating assuming you use powered winches. Since the YRA doesn't allow you to have multiple PHRF ratings, we though this would be sufficient to discourage casual powered-winch users since they wouldn't be able to race in other events where RRS 52 has not been modified, and only the few SSS-only racers who need help would apply. We did not envision a push-button-only electric boat.

So, someone looked at our rules and lived up to the letter of them, I presume (if their certificate allows their use). Was this our intention? No. Can we stop this? Yes, if we want. Our out is NOR Rule 5.

"5. UNUSUAL DESIGNS; INSPECTION
The Race Committee reserves the right to inspect any entered boat, and to cancel the entry of a boat with any unusual arrangement in hull, rig, sails, ballast, or equipment that the Race Committee considers to be a potential hazard, or an attempt to violate or circumvent the intent of this document."

Conceivably the SSS could invoke this rule and deny the entry. But that is another discussion of whether we should or not. I was shocked to learn that Sydney Hobart boats replaced many of their crew members with a 10HP diesel engine, which provides the energy used to trim all sails, move ballast, etc., and is "cheaper and lighter" than ten well-paid pro sailors. Should we stand in the way of progress? Many may have opinions that differ on this. Should satellite weather and navigation be allowed? Should boats be allowed to have supercomputers aboard calculating optimal paths from here to there? Should sloops be allowed? I know I'm going to ridiculous extremes here, but whether we chose to allow this or not should be a club decision.

The summary is we have a means to disallow this, now we just need to decide if we should invoke that means.

My two cents, Jim.

 

[Submarino]

A masters division is an idea. If we feel PHRF is not addressing power mods adequately, then a separate division could also make sense. The sticky part is does any power or some power qualify.

Question: How quickly can a fully power boat release jib or main sheet in emergency maneuvers? I don't remember seeing any sheets above deck.

I am low tech and tend to sail that way. Party because of cost and but mostly because of the spirit of simplicity. Over the brief time I have been sailing, I have seen tricked out or modified boats that if raced against sister vessels, they would have an significant unfair advantage. Is this a PHRF, SSS or owner derived. I do not know. If there is to be some criteria to be set or a line to be drawn, maybe monetary cost should be it. About 15 years ago, an Express with well a known owner, crew and driver showed up to Nationals with an exotic underdeck tacking system. It was ruled exotic, beyond the cost of most owners and too helpful. But more recently, Expresses have been going to Pac Cup with elongated rudders, asymmetric sails, carbon bowling balls and etc. There appeared to be adjustments to their rating but it deviates from the basic Express too much in my opinion.

Anyone interested in a homo hablis division. Just radio and nav lights, no electric powered AP, GPS, nav aids, etc.

I am still waiting for the Leman's start with a twist. Boat is at anchor and you are in the water on a 50' line. Horn blows, swim, climb aboard, pull anchor and sail away. Is that crazy or what!

Whatever is decided, cases should be made, people heard and votes taken. Else, I like that rule 5.

 

[Travieso]

Since I wrote 1.c.iii let me give you my perspective. During a race last year, someone complained that a young healthy guy (relatively speaking) was short tacking up the city front using power winches. As I understood our original intent of allowing powered winches, it was to aid people as they age, who still want to race but aren't the young person they once were. So it was conceived as something that wouldn't be invoked often.

To address this in 2020, the SSS Board approved the change to 1 c iii from the 2019 version of "Powered winches, hydraulics, or furling devices – only on boats that have declared this information on their PHRF application and have been rated accordingly. This modifies RRS 52." to the 2020 version "Powered winches, hydraulics, or furling devices – only on boats that have declared this information on their PHRF application and have received a PHRF rating that specifies allowable usage for the powered winches. This modifies RRS 52." Thus we put the onus on the PHRF committee. Thus having powered winches doesn't mean you can use them, unless your PHRF certificate specifically says this is the rating assuming you use powered winches. Since the YRA doesn't allow you to have multiple PHRF ratings, we though this would be sufficient to discourage casual powered-winch users since they wouldn't be able to race in other events where RRS 52 has not been modified, and only the few SSS-only racers who need help would apply. We did not envision a push-button-only electric boat.

So, someone looked at our rules and lived up to the letter of them, I presume (if their certificate allows their use). Was this our intention? No. Can we stop this? Yes, if we want. Our out is NOR Rule 5.

"5. UNUSUAL DESIGNS; INSPECTION
The Race Committee reserves the right to inspect any entered boat, and to cancel the entry of a boat with any unusual arrangement in hull, rig, sails, ballast, or equipment that the Race Committee considers to be a potential hazard, or an attempt to violate or circumvent the intent of this document."

Conceivably the SSS could invoke this rule and deny the entry. But that is another discussion of whether we should or not. I was shocked to learn that Sydney Hobart boats replaced many of their crew members with a 10HP diesel engine, which provides the energy used to trim all sails, move ballast, etc., and is "cheaper and lighter" than ten well-paid pro sailors. Should we stand in the way of progress? Many may have opinions that differ on this. Should satellite weather and navigation be allowed? Should boats be allowed to have supercomputers aboard calculating optimal paths from here to there? Should sloops be allowed? I know I'm going to ridiculous extremes here, but whether we chose to allow this or not should be a club decision.

The summary is we have a means to disallow this, now we just need to decide if we should invoke that means.

My two cents, Jim.

Thanks Jim, I guess it is the law of unintended consequences....

As someone who has been 'excluded' by rules for certain events, I'm not a fan of legislating boats out of competition. If there is enough interest for power assisted racing a new class can easily and immediately be created for the boats sporting the technology and needing to use it. Also, if we don't want to go that far section iii could be narrowed for next season.

 

[Travieso]

One other data point: We've now reached 101 entries for Saturday's race and are bumping up against the 80-boat limit for doublehanders set in the SI's.

But out of 100+ boats, my division has two entries - three when they move the WylieCat over. So if there was also a division for "skippers who need a little help," Ralph would be racing against himself and maybe Don.

Edit: Things are looking up - now 28 singlehanders are entered, including enough singlehanded Express 27s to have their own class. Maybe we'll reach the 33 SH'ers we had in RTR last year.

With not much other racing going on, I'm sure crews are begging their skippers to race doublehanded.... Of course, they must already be in their household/bubble...

 

[tiger beetle]

There's a distinction between meeting racing rules (electric winches or not) and how a particular boat scores in the results. The discussion concerns what it means to sail a boat (stored power or no), and has nothing to do with how a boat places in the results.

Sailboat racing is a physical sport, each skipper is sailing the boat to the best of their ability. A significant part of each person's ability is their physical fitness. As we age we also lose speed, agility, and strength. That's ok, we still go out and sail the boat as best we can, but we might not win as often (or at all), but at least we're still sailing.

The SSS should not support the idea of replacing physical ability with electric winches across the fleet. The electric winch strikes directly at the idea of racing - it's a physical sport, keep it physical. I understand the argument for having a 'power-assisted' division - this would provide a racing venue for skippers that can no longer sail their boats effectively without assistance, this could be fun.

I would like to know the circumstances behind the addition of 1.c.iii to the NOR. So far I haven't heard any details that brought the rule in and allowed electric winches onto the course. As a result, it's difficult to understand why the SSS would want to retain 1.c.iii that allows electric winches.

- rob