Race or Rally?

[Eyrie]

I have been doing some research into some of the "issues" that have arisen during our event in previous editions. Most of them involve the grey area of "outside assistance", and the dividing line between acceptable and unacceptable, which seems to shift depending on weather you view the Singlehanded TransPac as a race or a rally, or something in between (racelly? rallace?). Technically, it's a race and there are very specific rules limiting what is acceptable and they have always been included in the race instructions. But in spite of this, in past races there have been a number of occasions where these limits have been breached. Since the race committee did not observe these incidences directly they do not have any power to file a formal protest in order to maintain the strictest sense of a "race", which has resulted in many unhappy racers and race committee volunteers.

This is YOUR event and I think you have the right as a group to decide. Assuming that you can come to some sort of agreement, I will do my best to see that your expectations are met, and we can all be happy this year, okay? I am posting this to the forum as I believe the discussion should be publicly viewable to future race entrants and race committee volunteers in order that they might gain a better understanding of what is the current event philosophy, and also to past race entrants and race committee volunteers in order that they may share their personal experiences. If you do not feel comfortable expressing your thoughts publicly, then I encourage you to email me directly and I will tally your input anonymously.

Thanks for your input.

your 2008 volunteer race chair
Synthia/Eyrie
[email protected]

 

[sleddog]

The SHTP has always been about friendly competition between “bring what you got” sailors. Someday that may change. But until then, SHTP entrants have received the Racing Rules and Conditions (RRC). “Racing Rules” are just that, and I consider this a Race, not a rally or hybrid.

Within the SHTP RRC is Rule 3 stating the SHTP is governed by the 2005-2008 International Sailing Federation (ISAF) Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS) as adopted by the United States Sailing Association, with four listed exceptions (including twin jibs and autopilots). The RRS is lengthy, open to interpretation, and takes time to digest. The good news is the RRS is mainly written to prevent collisions: Port/ Starboard, Windward/Leeward, and Overtaking/Overtaken come to mind.

RRS Rule 41, as well as SHTP RRC 11.1-11.3, deal with Outside Assistance. To quote RRS 41:
A BOAT SHALL NOT RECEIVE HELP FROM AN OUTSIDE SOURCE, EXCEPT a) a boat or competitor shall give all possible help to any person or vessel in danger. b) help for an ill or injured crew member. c) after a collision, help from the crew of the other boat to get clear; d) help in the from of information freely available to all boats; e) unsolicitated information from a distinterested source, which may be another boat in the same race.

Note should be taken that SHTP RRC 11.1-11.3 goes further into depth about Outside Assistance, and provides exceptions/interpretations, including 11.2 (d), that one can ask and receive info about repairs, but not routing.

As has happened in previous races, where outside assistance was rendered, the RC may award redress for an assisting boat. It is suggested anyone going to another competitor's request for assistance attempt to document that assistance as to before/after position, speed, course, wind, and time lost in rendering assistance. And immediately notify RC upon finishing of request for redress.

And to all Race competitors, including myself, a reminder: Be safe. Sail smart.

~skip S/V WILDFLOWER

 

[Eyrie]

Hey Sleddog,

Thanks for starting this off. Now here's where we get into the shades of grey:

Scenario 1: a racer broadcasts to the fleet that he's busted his roller furler and is missing a screw to repair it. Not necessarily a "life threatening" situation as covered in the rules. Another racer offers to "screw him". Should the racer that accepted outside assistance in such a non life threatening situation be disqualified? Should the racer that offered assistance in such a non life threatening situation be given redress?

Scenario 2: a racer broadcasts to the fleet that he has been dismasted, but has fabricated a jury rig and is proceeding towards the finish under sail. Another racer in close proximity alters course and offers spare fuel to the jury rigged boat. The jury rigged boat accepts the fuel but completes the course under sail. Should the racer that accepted outside assistance be disqualified, weather he made use of the fuel or not? Should the racer that offered outside assistance be given redress?

Scenario 3: a racer broadcasts to the fleet that his rudder has broken and he is having difficulty steering his boat with the emergency rudder. Another racer in close proximity alters course and offers to stand by to render any assistance if necessary. The injured boat manages to make the proper adjustments to his boat in order to continue towards the finish under sail but at considerably reduced speed and states that he does not need assistance. The standby boat does not continue racing towards the finish at full speed but reduces his speed to pace the injured vessel. How much redress should the standby boat receive?

It is clearly the race committee's decision to grant redress if so requested and to then determine the amount of time that is deemed fair and reasonable. But the race committee does not have the power to disqualify for a rules infraction if they did not witness it, and apparently hearing it discussed over the radio either directly or indirectly does not count. So, either another racer must file a protest, or the racer must disqualify themselves, or nothing happens and thus the incident "never happened".


Synthia/Eyrie

 

[haulback]

It seems to me that anyone who comes to aid of anyone else, for whatever reason, should get redress. If only to encourage all other competitors to ALWAYS do so. What kind of event would it become if a call for help went not unheard,..... but unanswered???


More shades of grey.....

Firstly....as far as outside assistance in concerned, (and I'm pretty sure that I may as well whistle into the wind on this one, but here goes anyway) .... I think that recieving GRIBs during the race should be considered a 'request for outside assistance'. One must, indeed, formulate and send a specific request in to whatever provider you use to get them in the first place.
Whether one then takes a casual look and a wild guess, or feeds them into sophisticated routing software is immaterial - they got on board in the first place at the skipper's personal and calculated request. After all, no one can make the argument they are just out there for the taking, like weatherfax or voice forcasts.
Is it any different than calling a service on your satphone (which anyone could also have) and being given a forecast (generic or specialized is not important) that is not available to all???

how about this one....
-Solo sailor A is charging along with full access to gribs via sailmail or satphone link.
-Solo salor B has no access to gribs on board.
-Sailor B chats to passing catamaran (not in race but going the same way) over VHF, and asks him if he has access to grib files aboard
-Supposing passing catamaran gives him ONLY information obtained from recent grib file - the same that sailor A has just recieved himself
-Is one more guilty of requesting outside asstance that the other???

Jim/Haulback

 

[John Hayward]

I saw this post last night but wanted to sleep on it before responding.

As to Synthia's three hypothetical situations, I would say redress is not in order with the possible exception of #3. In *no* case did the skipper "declare and emergency." If the skipper says "I am in trouble and need assistance" then any boats responding to the call should be given redress. Period! Even if it's something they "should" have been prepared for. Tell them they were not properly prepared or are just an idiot when everybody is safe.

In case #1 I think both boats violated my idea of the spirit of the race. A broken roller furler is the type of thing you "expect" to happen and should be prepared to jury patch or work around. That is a large part of my preparation for the race. Insure as best I can things are in good enough shape they won't break and have an idea of the work around if something does break. If I lose a mast or a rudder or a roller furler, I will not be calling for help unless I feel it could turn into a life threatening situation. The situation in a previous race where the 23 foot boat lost rudder and then emergency rudder and was just drifting to HI seemed like a "life threatening situation" to me and the boat that stayed behind "in case" deserved redress.

As for Jim's case of GRIB's, I have to disagree with you Jim, sorry! I will have to say that this is one of many really "gray" areas though. Yes, you have to request gribs, but it is pretty much as "readily available" as weather fax and both are free to all. Anybody in the race that chooses to spend the money to install the equipment can have access to GRIBS. Am I violating the spirit of the race because I spend $375 to attend Lee Chesneau's 2 full day weather seminars so I can better use the information on weather faxes and not everybody can do that? If you get the information yourself, from a publicly available unpaid source it's OK. If you ask a visiting catamaran, you are getting help from a "person." Not everybody has access to that catamaran at that time. You asked for help by VHF voice or even if you had them pass you paper copies of the grib files, you are violating the letter of the law in both cases. If you want GRIB files during the race, then you should get the equipment to receive them. It's not really expensive. As a side note, I never trusted GRIB files anyway. Lee Chesneau is really against them. They are really pretty but they are "RAW DATA" from a computer model and making tactical or safety decisions on them alone is very risky.

There is no one watching any of us. If you win by violating the rules, even a little, what have you really accomplished? I don't see the reason for all the rules or requirements but I will try to abide by them 100%. The belt buckle would mean nothing to me if I cheated, even a little, to get it. Might as well buy one at a pawn shop it would be *lots* cheaper.....

Now here's a question for Synthia and the rest. If I came upon another racer in the middle of the ocean and passed them a bowl of ice cream would this be violating the rules by giving assistance????

John
Dream Chaser

 

[Warriors Wish]

Race or Rally

I am not a member of SSS, I have never volunteered for any activity within the SHTP, I have never crossed the starting line. I have nothing but this years entry fee vested in this event. I have not earned much of a right to comment, but with that said, I paid my entry fee for the Single Handed Transpac RACE. I have prepared my boat for such and would be dissapointed with anything less.

Providing Assistance: I strongly feel in any situation that those coming to the aid of another should not be penalized for that. Redress needs to be granted.

Outside Assistance: The race instructions have set the parameters for outside assistance in 2008. Its up to the race committee to determine if those instructions have not been followed and to assign any penalties.

Looking forwarded to being in CA. end of this month,

Don
Warriors Wish

 

[Eyrie]

Outside Assistance: The race instructions have set the parameters for outside assistance in 2008. Its up to the race committee to determine if those instructions have not been followed and to assign any penalties.

Thanks Don,

If you were race committee, how would you decide?

Synthia/Eyrie

 

[Eyrie]

It seems to me that anyone who comes to aid of anyone else, for whatever reason, should get redress. If only to encourage all other competitors to ALWAYS do so. What kind of event would it become if a call for help went not unheard,..... but unanswered???

Jim/Haulback

Thanks Jim,

You answered the first question, but what about the second question, should the person accepting the aid be disqualified?

Synthia/Eyrie

 

[Eyrie]

The situation in a previous race where the 23 foot boat lost rudder and then emergency rudder and was just drifting to HI seemed like a "life threatening situation" to me and the boat that stayed behind "in case" deserved redress.

Thanks John,
How much redress do you think is warranted?

Now here's a question for Synthia and the rest. If I came upon another racer in the middle of the ocean and passed them a bowl of ice cream would this be violating the rules by giving assistance????

Well, unless you shoved a suppository into the ice cream and claimed it was medical assistance then you'd be in violation of the rules as stated.

Synthia/Eyrie

 

[sleddog]

Outside Assistance: The race instructions have set the parameters for outside assistance in 2008. Its up to the race committee to determine if those instructions have not been followed and to assign any penalties. Warriors Wish

As Syn noted in original post, RC has no powers to assign penalties without either: a) A protest by a competitor who saw or was involved in the incident. b)Self reporting of a SHTP rules violation to RC at finish.

We are on our own out there to do what is right. Yes, there have been and will continue to be "gray areas." Nobody wants to arrive in Hanalei with a protest pending.

The Basic #1 Fundamental Racing Rule is: "A boat or competitor shall give all possible help to any person or vessel in danger."

If you are in danger and do request assistance, attempt to spell out what kind of assistance is requested, and the urgency of the situation. There is no penalty to discussing a developing problem, and competitors will have their ears tuned as much as possible to health and welfare amongst the fleet.

We are all gonna arrive at Hanalei Tree with big smiles, wonderful stories, and extra hugs for RC.

~sleddog

 

[John Hayward]

Hi Synthia,

I won't mention the ice cream again.........

As for the redress issue, I can only say what I would look at. If it's only a 12 hour deal or less in the trades, credit them the time to get back to "where they were." If it's like the situation where the "chase boat" essentially quit racing take their last 24 hours progress prior to the incident, figure when the "would" have arrived based on that and credit the difference between that and when they actually arrived.

Any situation where redress is involved will be way less than perfect, but then so are the PHRF and PCR ratings even if conditions were absloutely constant, which they never are.

I hope I don't have to render assistance to anyone, mostly because I hope no one "needs" assistance. Should the situation come up, I will be happy with whatever the race committee comes up with in the way of redress because that won't be my first concern at the time.

We are all gonna arrive at Hanalei Tree with big smiles, wonderful stories, and extra hugs for RC.

~sleddog

John H
Dream Chaser

 

[dogbark]

Hi all, I was up north doing finishing touches to the bottom of Dogbark.
Call me hardnose but I would offer no redress in any of the three cases. I would dsq both of the racers accepting outside assistance in scenario 1 and 2 if they attempted to finish the "race".
I would agree with the determination that gribs are in the public domain and are open to be received by all. Interpretation of gribs by anything or anyone other than the skipper is not allowed by the rules as I read them.
Second the hugs and thanks to the rc and all other volunteers. It is much harder than doing the actual sailing in my opinion.
See you all soon, Al

 

[John Hayward]

Thanks Al,

I sometimes hesitate to post here since I haven't done it before, you have, glad you appear to agree with all points including the rc.

John

 

[Alchera]

If the SSS TransPac degrades into a 'rally', the accomplishments of those who have worked long and hard to prepare themselves and their boats becomes meaningless. I do not want the SSS Transpac to be regarded as a 'joke' race that no one takes seriously. I want it to remain an accomplishment that others regard somewhat in awe, so that we as skippers who manage to complete the race can be proud of our accomplishment for the rest of our lives. Don't even *think* of turning into a 'rally'.

As for the scenarios, both skippers in case #1 and #2 clearly accepted outside assistance and should be disqualified.

And as for Gribs, my opinion is that it is just another kind of weather information which requires different equipment to receive. So unless you want to get picky about protocols, it's no different than a weatherfax machine. Both of them you turn on, and you end up with publicly available weather information.

- Mark/Alchera

 

[haulback]

Thanks Jim,

You answered the first question, but what about the second question, should the person accepting the aid be disqualified?

Synthia/Eyrie

Of course......anyone who accepts material assistance on the course should be disqualified, regardless of whether they actually put it use it or not.

in the case of the boat that was shepherded to the finish - well, he did make it without accepting anything that I am aware of...... Apart from a herdsman.

........................................................................................................

as for the grib topic, as I said when I first mentioned it......
[QUOTE (and I'm pretty sure that I may as well whistle into the wind on this one, but here goes anyway) /QUOTE]

........................................................................................................

race or rally???
Good Grief.......It's a race!!!

Jim/Haulback

 

[BobJ]

My opinions:

It's a race.

As I read the Rules and Conditions, if a competitor receives anything other than a written message (11.1), medical supplies (11.1) or information about the repair of on-board equipment (11.2(d)), the competitor has received prohibited outside assistance and should retire.

The request for assistance will be a difficult call to make because if the competitor receives the assistance, his race is over. If he doesn't, things may go from bad to worse and more than just his race could be at risk.

Once the assistance is requested, all boats in a position to provide it are obligated to do so and should be eligible for redress.

That's my "take" on it.

 

[sleddog]

A small detail that is obvious and is unlikely to come into play, but competitors should be aware of: Part 4 of the RRS states: " an engine may be used to help a person or vessel in danger." (without penalty)

Of course if an engine is used to provide assistance, details should be submitted to RC.

 

[AlanH]

This is somewhat peripheral to the discussion, but I wonder if perhaps an option could be considered in terms of those who "offered outside assistance" or some such. WHAT IF instead of a DSQ, which means that the person didn't actually "do" the race and earn their belt buckle, the possibility existed to give a competing boat a 96 hour time penalty (4 days)? That would pretty much guarantee that the boat would finish last in the fleet, but they would complete the race.

A lot of us spend tens of thousands of dollars to do this race (RACE not RALLY, no matter how relaxed many of us are about the racing aspect of it) and to functionally deny the satisfaction of finishing to someone who may have offered assistance in all good spirit seems kind of brutal.

This is kind of silly, but I personally don't wear the buckle I was given in 2004. It's in my chest of drawers at home, wrapped in tissue paper, waiting for me to return from the 2008 SHTP. You see, I STARTED the 2004 SHTP, but I didn't FINISH it and in my mind that means I didn't earn it. To DSQ someone from the race denies them the point of finishing the race, and earning the buckle. IMHO. Finishing last is finishing last but you FINISH, there's a BIG difference.

Anyway, just a thought.

A couple more thoughts:

Offering physical assistance during the race when the person requesting assistance is not in life-threatening or boat-threatening danger should not result in the person getting redress. It MIGHT result in a 96-hour penalty depending on the situation. When the danger IS life-threatening or boat-threatening, then redress should be considered.

Requesting assistance in life threatening or boat-threatening situations could result in a DSQ, but at that point being DSQ'd from the SHTP is pretty small potatoes compared to the alternative. You know...like dead or floating in your liferaft. Besides, if you lose the boat you're not DSQ'd, you DNF'd, which is technically different. Requesting assistance in a non life-threatening or boat-threatening situation is a DSQ or 96-hour penalty depending on the decision of the RC.

Regarding situation #3 where a boat slowed down to accompany another boat who was disabled from loss of both primary rudder and backup rudder...

There are more important things in this world than belt buckles. Respect and honor are two of them. If that skipper judged that the skipper of the disabled boat was potentially in danger, and put his own race on the line to make sure that the other man got to shore alive and well, then he can have MY belt buckle, because he sure as hell has my respect. I know both the skippers and I can tell you that I was mighty glad to hear that the skipper of the non-disabled boat stood by *just in case*. If he hadn't, we might not be having this discussion, we might be talking about what to do when a competitor is disabled... is there a penalty for sailing past him and keeping going?

 

[John Hayward]

Hi All,

Perhaps I am missing something here, but there seems to be a lot of talk about somebody saying this or that is broken and other people taking it on themselves to rush to their aid. I don't intend to go the aid of "anyone" that doesn't request it. I don't mean this cruelly, but that is not only what I expect but what I "want" for myself. I will backtrack 500 miles to render assistance to a skipper who thinks they are in a life threatening situation and are requesting assistance, but I am not going to divert at all if somebody just mentions a problem and doesn't request assistance. I will not be aboard and if they don't think it's life threatening, then why should I??? If I was dismasted, lost a rudder, etc. I would almost certainly notify the communications boat/race committee, but that doesn't mean I need or want assistance, it just means I have a situation and I am merely giving them a heads up. Mostly the heads up is necessary because my speed and/or heading may suffer dramatically and people might wonder why. I would rather come in well after the race has finished, under my own power than request assistance. To me this is part and parcel of both the preparation and the execution of the race.

To me, the moment I "call for assistance" I have dropped out of the race, officially, and will have to try again for my belt buckle another year and I would hope that any vessel coming to my aid at that point would be given redress. I would also hope and expect that if I call for help, the situation is so desperate that I have already set off my EPIRB and am prepared to abandon my boat if it's still floating.

The help and suggestions from this forum have been great for the preparation phase, but I want to deal with anything that comes up at sea as if I was Joshua Slocum and don't have all the modern means of getting help. I thought that all the rules regarding help were there to keep this a "one man show" on the water and not a singlehanded sailing classroom. If I wanted a cruising venue where it is expected that half the fleet will need to call for help of some sort then I would have waited until November and joined the HaHa fleet. I think they even have parts for sale at Mag Bay or Bahia Santa Maria?? I hope the Singlehanded Transpac never deteriorates to the point that we have a West Marine parts boat rafted up with a Starbucks boat about Latitude 28.........

My thoughts and hopes for what this race both is and will remain and no offence is intended to anyone.

John
Dream Chaser

 

[haulback]

I may be not much comprehending the rules all that much, but i obviously missed a really important class somewhere along the way - you can get DSQ'd for coming to aid of a mariner in distress????

Where did this come from????


as far as the belt buckle question....seems to me that if you get to Hanalei on your own bottom, without outside assistance or using mechanical propulsion - regardless whether or not you have mast or rudder still attached, or even make it by the deadline - you should be entitled the buckle.

Not for entering, paying fee, meeting all requirements , or getting to the start line. You have to sail the course

Jim/Haulback