Race or Rally?

[sleddog]

I may be not much comprehending the rules all that much, but i obviously missed a really important class somewhere along the way - you can get DSQ'd for coming to aid of a mariner in distress???? Jim/Haulback

Negatory, Good Buddy.
Nobody would ever be DSQ'd for going to the aid of a mariner in distress.

In fact, it is the opposite: one may be DSQ'd for not "giving all possible help to any person or vessel in danger." (Rule 1 of the Racing Rules of Sailing.)

However, if one alters and claims redress, there is onus to provide proof (log book, plotting sheet, radio conversation, etc.) that there was reason to alter for the distress.

The point for this forum thread is RC is attempting to educate the fleet about the various nuances (shades of grey) of the rules so hopefully it will be more black and white during the race. And RC will be able to share in the joy of accomplishment with competitors when they hit shore, rather than having to be the outside administrator of the rules and other unpleasantries.

~sleddog

 

[AlanH]

Maybe I didn't write my post very well, Jim. I cannot ever imagine that the RC would DSQ anyone for responding to a call for assistance, whether it was life-threatening/boat threatening or not. ASKING for assistance is one thing. RESPONDING is another. Now, they might not grant redress in a case of offering assistance in a situation where the problem wasn't life/boat threatening.

About the boat who lost his primary rudder and his backup rudder: That skipper didn't broadcast a call for assistance and say the situation was life- or boat-threatening (I think). So in fact it's completely fine that the fleet sailed on. Besides, he was at the very back of the fleet. Nonetheless, I've been on board that boat, and while I respect the guy who sailed it and I'm really glad he got there, and I'm somewhat in awe of the accomplishment of sailing that boat back to the Pacific Northwest from Hawaii, I STILL hold the skipper who stuck around "just in case" in high regard for what he did. If he needs an extra belt buckle, I've got one that's never been worn in my sock drawer at home.

*****************

My Personal Opinion

This is a race. Some people race it hard and really put their all into winning it. Other people are a lot more relaxed about the race aspect of it. BUT IT'S A RACE...always has been, and should stay that way.

To get a belt buckle, you have to complete the race. To get your name on the nifty little Excel spreadsheet listing all the finishers, you have to complete the race. People pour thousands of dollars and months, if not years of work into doing this race. I'd sure like to see an alternative penalty, to be applied by the RC's discrimination, for difficult and possibly "borderline" situations where a competitor brushed up against the edge of some rules....not just the outside assistance rule. This penalty would ensure that the competitor was absolutely DFL in the race, but it would still allowed them to FINISH. Thus the 96-hour penalty suggestion.

I also applaud the RC for putting this discussion up on the board so that everybody is on the same page, and like Skip puts it, the "RC will be able to share in the joy of accomplishment with competitors when they hit shore, rather than having to be the outside administrator of the rules and other unpleasantries."

 

[Eyrie]

This comment is from Na Na

My thoughts. The penalty of breaking any racing rule is too great for anyone to call on themselves or anyone else. That being disqualification. We all want anyone that got to Hanalei Bay to be certified as completeing the race. The only way that we can enforce any of the rules is to have time penalities which have been developed and published before the race which are automatically charged and are not at the discression of anyone including the race committee. This has been used in the "Around the World Racing" such as the Volvo and Clipper races. Maybe there will be some time at the next meeting at Encinal YC.
Dwight
-- --
My feeling is that it would not be appropriate to discuss this at the weather seminar on 7/7, so I would like to open this up again here and then come to an agreement at the skippers meeting on 7/11.
Synthia

 

[sleddog]

My thoughts. The penalty of breaking any racing rule is too great for anyone to call on themselves or anyone else. That being disqualification. We all want anyone that got to Hanalei Bay to be certified as completeing the race.
Dwight
Synthia

Dwight's concern is valid. Though I am not advocating what I write below as a definitive solution, it is perhaps a starting point.

Replace old RRC 18.3 with: 18.3 " In lieu of disqualification, a jury may impose a penalty for infractions of NOR, Racing Rules and Conditions (RRC), the Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS), and for non-compliance with required equipment that will result in six hours added to the yacht's elapsed time. Taking a 720 penalty is disallowed.
In lieu of flying a protest flag, RC must be notified at the finish line, or if not practical, within one hour of finishing, that a yacht's skipper is self reporting a rules violation aboard his yacht, or that a protest against another yacht is intended. In such case, a written description of the incident must be filed with RC within six hours of dropping anchor at Hanalei."

Note: Under RRS 31.1, a yacht that hits a starting mark may, upon getting well clear of other boats, and as soon as possible, take a penalty by promptly making one full turn including one tack and one jibe.

~sleddog

 

[John Hayward]

I thought we had put this to bed, but "guess not." Breaking the rules a "little bit" is like being a "little bit pregnant." If you miss a check-in you are penalized. If you provide aid and assistance to another boat that hasn't declared an emergency (including, as Synthia pointed out, passing them some ice cream) you are both guilty of breaking the rules and should be disqualified. Black/White, no gray, rules are rules. It's not practical or desireable (in my opinion) to say passing ice cream is a 1 hour penalty and passing roller furler parts or engine parts is a 5 hour penalty and so on. Even if everyone was in favor of something like this, the amount of the relative penalties for "minor infractions" could be debated until the race in 2010 without agreement or successful resolution.

It's a race; play by the rules; ALL THE RULES. If you can't make Hanalei without help, you didn't "earn" a belt buckle. If you can't make it on your own and need assistance to get there and one or more skippers divert to come to your aid, they should definitely be given redress, the amount of which should be decided by the r/c but if they then make it on their own, they should still get belt buckles. To me, this race is about preparing for and doing it "on your own." If you can't, you're out of the race whether it's roller furler parts or medical supplies you didn't bring or being plucked out of your liferaft.

Have I missed something???

My thoughts.

John
Dream Chaser

 

[John Hayward]

I just saw Skip's post and wanted to say that all my comments refer to "willful" actions on the part of skippers, specifically rendering aid, not things like accidentally hitting a buoy or other "accidents" or other minor things like not checking in where penalties are quite appropriate and dsq is far too severe. The initial posts were all about rendering aid in one for or another.

John
Dream Chaser

 

[haulback]

Skip's suggestion of a sort of jury/board/conglomeration, or some other kind of group-hug, to decide these things at the end of the race may be the right direction to head in - IF the SSS board feels, indeed, that it is becoming an issue.

From my perspective, as a non-SSS member, it seems to me that what is important here, apart from following and meeting the 'letter' of the rules for the race, is the 'spirit' of the event itself, which for me anyways, is the whole point of showing up.

What was one of the main attractions to me, the first time I entered the SHTP was the utter simplicity of it - there was only one mark, the Golden Gate Bridge - and I figured I could get under that Ok - then 'by any route to the finish' (or something like that)

You put the required equipment on the boat and don't use the engine.....Pretty basic stuff even I could understand.

If you want to write a set of rules to cover everything, then kill a forest and get started. Otherwise, let common sense, fair play and good sportsmanship prevail.

There has been a lot of chatter about the belt buckle - which is a pretty cool little item, I admit - But more important to my mind is the honour of participation and the satisfaction of completion.

Jim/Haulback

 

[AlanH]

There has been a lot of chatter about the belt buckle - which is a pretty cool little item, I admit - But more important to my mind is the honour of participation and the satisfaction of completion.

Jim/Haulback

It's just a bronze plated pewter belt buckle. I know exactly how much they cost, I coordinated the casting of the 2004 lot. They cost right about $15 each.

If it were a tie tack or a nose ring it wouldn't matter. What matters is what it represents, which is in part what we're discussing here.

Then again I have to say that I grok what you're saying. Read the rules, put the stuff on the boat, and go. If you get there, you rock, and you get a belt buckle. It's not all that complicated.

 

[425]

Ok, what about a 4th scenario. In this years race NaNa returned with the intention of restarting and did this once or twice. But then the problem persisted and he announced he was returning AND retiring from the race. His mechanic found the problem quickly and he has restarted.

If he "retires" and is scratched from the roll, shouldn't he be done and not allowed to restart? If a competitor says, "I am retiring from the race," at what point should the race chair step in and take their words at face value. It is just a difference in words, but important words for those racing still and keeping their gear patched together.

As for the other scenarios I think John Hayward #5 put it best.