STIX and tinkering with PHRF

[BobJ]

ORR is allegedly what the Downwind ratings are based on. Plus ORR is supposed to be adjusted for the conditions, to be effective.

Are you sure you want to go there?

 

[pogen]

ORR is allegedly what the Downwind ratings are based on. Plus ORR is supposed to be adjusted for the conditions, to be effective.

Are you sure you want to go there?

Downwind Ratings were cooked up with no verification of cert data, which is often crap. So, GIGO.

 

[brianb]

I wish Pac Cup would make up their minds. I want to make a decision and need to know the cost of getting an ORR rating. My guess is somewhere around $1500, anyone have experience with this ?

 

[brianb]

I read the minutes of the Aug 19 PacCup meeting. They are requiring certified PHRF, which will require a water line and displacement measurement. THis is also the requirement of the Nor Cal PHRF going forward. They are arranging group measurement days at a cost of $200 per boat, which sound pretty reasonable compared to what some acquaintances have experienced in the past. I wonder if this holds for larger vessels (like Tiger Beetle ? ). As PacCup usually does they are following NorCal PHRF so they mostly stay out of the rating business.

Here is the wording from the NorCal site:

Why you might want a CPHRF certificate:
In 2014, the Pacific Cup will require a CPHRF certificate for all boats who wish to compete for the overall Pacific Cup trophy. Possibly in the future other downwind races will start to require CPHRF certificates.

How to get a CPHRF certificate:
If you have a valid* ORR or IRC certificate, submit a copy of those certificates with your application requesting a CPHRF. No other action or fee is required. All the information needed is on those certificates. (*"valid" means a current certificate that accurately represents the configuration you will sail under in PHRF.)

If you do not have a valid ORR or IRC certificate, you must have your boat weighed and hull profile measured by a licensed US Sailing measurer. The measurer must measure IRC profile data and will weigh the boat in IRC measurement configuration. IRC configuration is essentially empty all sails and loose gear removed. Please read and prepare your boat following the CPHRF Owner Measurement Preparation Guide.

The Pacific Cup will arrange a few specific dates where groups of boats can be measured together, thus significantly reducing cost. These group measurements will be conducted by measurer Dick Horn at Berkeley Marine Center, and are expected to cost $200/boat. A boat that measures solo can expect a normal haul out rate and Dick Horn's hourly rate.

ORR displacements are typically 1-2% higher than IRC because more gear is allowed on board for ORR measurement. The PHRF board will consider the data source and adjust displacement to suit in calculating downwind ratings.



NCPHRF Quick Links

Electronic Application
Printable NCPHRF Application
NCPHRF Rules & Guidelines
NCPHRF Ratings
NCPHRF Rating Appeal Form

 

[pogen]

Here is the link to NorCal PHRF: http://www.yra.org/PHRF/ncphrf_certifiedratings.html


I guess they mean to tinker with base ratings using a bit better data. But frankly, I am not sure that the overall system, which is much more 'historical' than 'empirical' will be much improved, as there are some notorious examples of base ratings that are completely out of whack, and that the NCPHRF has not addressed in spite of decades worth of data.

 

[BobJ]

Upon careful reading of your link, it sounds like the whole agenda is to try to save the Downwind ratings. "We're sure your boat is heavier than you told us, so you won't mind."

So once a year we make our pilgrimage to Berkeley Marine Center, pay our $200 and have our boat weighed? Then we can get a PHRF certificate? Good luck with that - we have a fair bit of trouble rounding up current certificates from some of you now.

I'm sorry, but this is a complete misunderstanding of what PHRF is and who it's intended for. Clubs will just start using their own ratings (like many do now for beer can racing) and YRA will lose its largest revenue source. It seems to me that PacCupYC is trying to offload its DW rating popularity problem onto NorCal PHRF, and YRA will pay the price.

Perhaps someone in an official capacity* will respond to this thread, and to us as NorCal PHRF's largest (and growing) constituency. How many PHRF certs get issued in January for the Three Bridge Fiasco? (LOTS)

* I am not posting as a representative of the SSS board. However, since participation in our races would suffer if we continued to require current certificates and the boats had to be weighed, I would bring this up to the board.

 

[brianb]

The Pac Cup Commodore just called me. Here is their plan:

CPHRF is only required for entrants interested in the overall trophy, so no need to do the measurement.

However, the YRA implies/states CPHRF is required for YRA racing in the future, however they point back at Pac Cup for measurement plans ? If that is true than i essence Pac Cup is requiring 100% weigh in since it is required for YRA PHRF, unless Pac Cup is allowing 2013 certs ?
I have a call to YRA for clarity. I suspect this might be a bit squishy.

In any case it looks like we should all budget weigh ins every so often, at least sometime in the near future.

If YRA requires it than it is also a requirement for SSS racing as Nor Cal PHRF is a requirement, right ?

Brian

 

[pogen]

As Comrade Lenin so aptly put it: "Who, Whom?"

What is driving this? Who is being served here? Does this address any of the factors that are causing the decline in participation?

 

[brianb]

I just re read the Nor Cal YRA posting. I missed a key point, they are not stating this is a general requirement but that more events are starting to require the measurement and are suggesting it. As you said, they seem to be preserving the downwind rating. I actually agree that a measurement is the right thing to do in order to have accuracy, but it requires substantial cost which I don't like. I wonder about the annual requirement ? I know in one design racing I did in two classes we had annual weigh ins (and in one case spot weigh ins at some regatta's).

I guess we are in for more and more continual escalating costs what with PHRF & technology requirements. I think I will just go to CLipper Cove and hang out to talk about the sailing I used to do.

 

[Philpott]

and we'll have to add a DH division to our race.

wash your mouth out with soap. Even if I never sail a singlehanded transpac, I want to know there are sailors out there doing it. As a tribe.

 

[BobJ]

That took a lot longer than I expected.

 

[pogen]

Clubs will just start using their own ratings [...] - and NorCal PHRF's largest (and growing) constituency. How many PHRF certs get issued in January for the Three Bridge Fiasco? (LOTS)

A straight-line extrapolation of race participation would indicate that the SSS will be the only organization running series races in the bay in about 15 years. Then you will be holding the stick!

 

[BobJ]

I don't like to think that way.

Besides, by then I'll be rafted up next to Brian (and a bunch of others) in Clipper Cove. We'll set up a rabbit start and race back to RYC or something. This is ALWAYS an option, and the powers-that-be need to understand that.

(Sounds kinda fun actually.)

 

[pogen]

Is a rabbit start like a Le Mans start? I heard a story that the Folkboats used to start in a bar. At the gun, you had to finish a beer and then run with your jib under your arm down to the dock, bend on the jib and push off.

 

[BobJ]

What you described is a variant on a LeMans start. The possibilities are endless (and great fun).

For a rabbit start, one boat (the "rabbit") sails close-hauled on port tack (I think), and all the other boats (on starboard) have to pass behind the rabbit to start. Then the rabbit tacks onto starboard and you're off to the races. The So-Cal shorthanders group starts most of their races this way (right Slack?). No marks, no race deck, in fact, no R/C.

 

[pogen]

I read the minutes of the Aug 19 PacCup meeting. They are requiring certified PHRF,

OK, now I am starting to get it. We are looking at this bottom up; they have a top-down problem of giving an overall trophy to a fleet that are using two completely different ratings systems.

From the point of view of an ORR high-ender, PHRF is hokey, subjective bullshit, and they don't want to loose the overall Pac Cup trophy to a PHRF boat with a sweetheart rating. So, PacCup will ignore the ORR ratings for the consideration of the overall trophy, and use these C-PHRF ratings to calculate the overall fleet ranking, while still using the ORR ratings for scoring within the individual fast-boat divisions. Though now they are left with as many as three different rating systems....

Question: In a Division with a mix of C-PHRF and straight PHRF (if they allow people to opt out of getting the C-) , how do they score?

However, this is not at all the problem faced by any other local race organizer that I am aware of, none of whom run mixed-system races.

Is PacCup unduly influencing NorCalPHRF to make this change, or is it the other way 'round?

And, given the lack of success that the DW-PHRF has enjoyed, mightn't the committee consult a bit more with various stakeholders before mandating this change?

 

[brianb]

The LA Single Handers do almost all their starts using the rabbit approach. Having done it many times in small fleets it really works fairly well, though often the rabbit ends up with a distinct advantage.

We used to do LeMans starts in long distance Hobie races. It is fun, but often the winner was the guy who moved his boat to the most upwind position on the beach. (See this talking about the sailing i used to do is already kicking in, Clipper Cove here I come).

 

[brianb]

I think Pac CUp is trying to take a path that attracts the big name race boats and raise the world's attention regarding the Pac Cup. This leads them to a system that the big guys are comfortable with.

 

[Ragnar]

Rabbit starts are elegant. A 10 minute dance is performed, then everyone is off and racing and something was just created from nothing.

One race 2 years ago someone offered a Committee Boat for one of our starts. Race day came with 10 foot seas, so the Committee Boat turned tail for the barn. The Rabbit attempted the start, but it was so rough, the call went out to the fleet to: "just sail within 100 yards of the mark after 11:00am." And we were off and racing.

 

[Harrier]

So: Is the SSS Race committee for the 2014 SHTP aiming to change the handicap system we have been using for some time...since 1992, I think.???
Not that I'm interested in anything but a hypothetical way.....