BobJ
Alerion 38 "Surprise!"
Now you know who fixed it. It's one of many reasons why I'm not as enamored with YB as some of you. TOD is easier than TOT but they couldn't figure it out.
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Tracker type comparison for use in the SHTP
- Thread starter brianb
- Start date
Now you know who fixed it. It's one of many reasons why I'm not as enamored with YB as some of you. TOD is easier than TOT but they couldn't figure it out.
brianb
Olson 34 Driver
I assume this was a live guess of leaders etc ? If so, how did you project forward to the finish line to guess who would win ? I once did a sheet for the Pac Cup and made the assumption that the average speed over the course to date would be maintained to the finish line. Did you do something more sophisticated ?
BB
MichaelJefferson
New member
Hello everyone!
i finally got on the forum!! Mouton Noir is planning to do the 2014 race, but not signed up yet. Some issues with a relative's health may be an issue. We will see...With respect to the tracker: everyone I know who watched the race unfold on YellowBrick LOVED it!!! Loved ones and close friends were greatly reassurred by seeing the positions. I used the Brick all the way to Alaska, and was glad to have the extra security that having positions available to others allowed. I checked the Yellowbrick site, and they now have a new model. Several actually. These can be rented or owned. They can be mounted above decks on a special fitting that releases easily, or apparently mounted below decks with an external Iridium antenna and external power supply. The internal battery still works and is fully charged if you need to get it out the door and into a liferaft or something. The web site is: http://www.yellowbrick-tracking.com/. The model we used in 2012 is apparently no longer used. The new model is very small, and allows text messages to be sent. My feeling, having looked at the YellwBrick website is that YB is VERY experienced, and a much better choice than Delorme. If the rules allow for both methods of position tracking, then there should be no issue. With respect to results in real time, since time and energy has been invested with YB already, then we presuimably have both a contact there and history with them that gives us much more leverage. Also, I bet they could run the last race positions through the processor to check algorithms, which we can then validate. I probably will have a (purchased) Yellowbrick aboard regardless, but I think that it would be responsible and appropriate for the fleet to carry them.
Mouton Noir is in Sven's right now getting the usual bottom issues addressed (if it ever warms up). Foxxfyre is for sale to the right person if anyone knows someone that would take care of her and sail her.
All the best,
Michael
i finally got on the forum!! Mouton Noir is planning to do the 2014 race, but not signed up yet. Some issues with a relative's health may be an issue. We will see...With respect to the tracker: everyone I know who watched the race unfold on YellowBrick LOVED it!!! Loved ones and close friends were greatly reassurred by seeing the positions. I used the Brick all the way to Alaska, and was glad to have the extra security that having positions available to others allowed. I checked the Yellowbrick site, and they now have a new model. Several actually. These can be rented or owned. They can be mounted above decks on a special fitting that releases easily, or apparently mounted below decks with an external Iridium antenna and external power supply. The internal battery still works and is fully charged if you need to get it out the door and into a liferaft or something. The web site is: http://www.yellowbrick-tracking.com/. The model we used in 2012 is apparently no longer used. The new model is very small, and allows text messages to be sent. My feeling, having looked at the YellwBrick website is that YB is VERY experienced, and a much better choice than Delorme. If the rules allow for both methods of position tracking, then there should be no issue. With respect to results in real time, since time and energy has been invested with YB already, then we presuimably have both a contact there and history with them that gives us much more leverage. Also, I bet they could run the last race positions through the processor to check algorithms, which we can then validate. I probably will have a (purchased) Yellowbrick aboard regardless, but I think that it would be responsible and appropriate for the fleet to carry them.
Mouton Noir is in Sven's right now getting the usual bottom issues addressed (if it ever warms up). Foxxfyre is for sale to the right person if anyone knows someone that would take care of her and sail her.
All the best,
Michael
As they say, "I don't have a dog in this fight," but have some thoughts anyway. I've sailed the PacCup with a YB beeping away in the bow seat. It made my wife, family, and friends comfortable to see that little dot move across the Pacific. Having a tracker wasn't a deal breaker on the home front, but the idea certainly helped. I'll be helping deliver a boat back from Oahu this August, and having that box beeping will be important on that trip, too.
I helped run several pre-2000 TransPacs and was Commodore for one that Michael sailed "Foxxfyer" in. I can remember tense times when boats disappeared from the VHF/HF world. It's my opinion that distance ocean races should take advantage of the latest technology, including Satellite tracking. Making ocean racing safer doesn't diminish the accomplishment of sailing, especially singlehanded, across oceans.
Pat Broderick, Commodore Emritus
I helped run several pre-2000 TransPacs and was Commodore for one that Michael sailed "Foxxfyer" in. I can remember tense times when boats disappeared from the VHF/HF world. It's my opinion that distance ocean races should take advantage of the latest technology, including Satellite tracking. Making ocean racing safer doesn't diminish the accomplishment of sailing, especially singlehanded, across oceans.
Pat Broderick, Commodore Emritus
BobJ
Alerion 38 "Surprise!"
Brian, I started with the reqular "who's ahead" formula: Difference in ratings X 2,120nm/3600, then dialed in the DTF. How YB used that for their tracking page calculations is above my pay grade, but they did confirm they used my method.
Regarding tracking, if position reporting is being turned over to a third party (YB or whomever) there should be no time penalties, since the device (or company) screwing up is beyond the skipper's control. There is NFW I'm going to spend thousands of dollars to do this race if my results (due to time penalties) are at the mercy of a third party and its equipment. Moreover, it fundamentally changes our race, and not for the better. Where's the self-sufficiency which has always been the hallmark of the race? "You're self-sufficient, but Mommy will always know where you are if you have an oopsie."
Finally, there are frequent references to the Pacific Cup. The Singlehanded TransPac is a very different race and I'd like to see it stay that way.
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brianb
Olson 34 Driver
Tracking: Agree completely, there should be no reporting penalty as the RC has now assumed the responsibility of providing a working methodology. We will have to tighten the rules to make it clear racers are not allowed to take a tracker offline or obscure it's satellite view in some fashion. We should also be able to greatly reduce the role of comm vessel as they likely need only report other vessels positions to the fleet and not take position reports. If we have a missing vessel the Comm boat could attempt communication with same via relay, ssb, or VHF.
Pacific Cup: Yes, sailors have a tendency to discuss their experiences doing the Pacific crossing in the Pac Cup or other venues. I don't see much danger in that having a huge impact on the nature of this race. The nature of this race is largely dictated by the rules we have adopted, which are very similar to Pac Cup, only varying on the margins. Since their roots are international it tends to make all ocean races very similar in execution.
Thanks,
Brian
pogen
Sailing canoe "Kūʻaupaʻa"
Actually, if you decide to let the tracker do the daily reporting, with no other mandated position report, then that is a pretty big step. I don't believe I have heard of a long distance race that used only the tracker for position reports. I believe Transpac, Paccup, Cabo, Bermuda, etc. all work on the "racer calls in once per day, tracker is just backup and for landlubber entertainment" mode. Tracker reliability has gotten a lot better in the last 5 years or so.
Are you going to broadcast the noonsite tracker fix to the whole fleet once per day? Will tracker info be not out-of-bounds as far as being considered outside assistance? If a racer's tracker fails mid-race, what's the plan? He probably won't know unless he is informed somehow. And he can only be informed via satphone email or SSB, which he has to have on and tuned in to the right channel at some predictable time.
Are you going to broadcast the noonsite tracker fix to the whole fleet once per day? Will tracker info be not out-of-bounds as far as being considered outside assistance? If a racer's tracker fails mid-race, what's the plan? He probably won't know unless he is informed somehow. And he can only be informed via satphone email or SSB, which he has to have on and tuned in to the right channel at some predictable time.
brianb
Olson 34 Driver
In 2012 position reporting was mandatory but by any means. It was declared that the tracker was sufficient for daily check ins. Two boats, myself, and the Moore 24 used the tracker daily position reports. It worked well.
As I said earlier, the role of the comm boat will probably be reduced to just report tracker positions via an SSB broadcast. Of course there would be the usual chatter as well. Tracker data, delayed several hours, was open to all in the 2012 race.
As I said earlier, if a tracker fails the comm boat would broadcast that fact and try to establish communication via SSB, or VHF. Folks on land could send email to the vessel in question. There would be no penalty to the vessel as the tracker operation is a burden on the RC.
It is possible someone will fall off the radar screen due to communication breakdown. That is not new. Given boats have a tracker, an EPRIB, and a VHF at a minimum they are well covered.
Brian
As I said earlier, the role of the comm boat will probably be reduced to just report tracker positions via an SSB broadcast. Of course there would be the usual chatter as well. Tracker data, delayed several hours, was open to all in the 2012 race.
As I said earlier, if a tracker fails the comm boat would broadcast that fact and try to establish communication via SSB, or VHF. Folks on land could send email to the vessel in question. There would be no penalty to the vessel as the tracker operation is a burden on the RC.
It is possible someone will fall off the radar screen due to communication breakdown. That is not new. Given boats have a tracker, an EPRIB, and a VHF at a minimum they are well covered.
Brian
Thanks for continuing this debate.
And I'm a stick in the md, really.
Having a functioning Communications Boat (team) keeps a focus on the fleet by this relay.
What was "sail to Hanalei" with a small list of equipment: EPIRB, raft...food, water....now puts a lot of pressure on the racer to pay THOUSANDS on electronic equipment.
I do not want to eliminate the "failure to report" penalty.
Essentially, what David said.
Lucie
And I'm a stick in the md, really.
Having a functioning Communications Boat (team) keeps a focus on the fleet by this relay.
What was "sail to Hanalei" with a small list of equipment: EPIRB, raft...food, water....now puts a lot of pressure on the racer to pay THOUSANDS on electronic equipment.
I do not want to eliminate the "failure to report" penalty.
Essentially, what David said.
Lucie
brianb
Olson 34 Driver
I disagee 100%. If we require tracking then the burden shifts to RC. These boats used to run to hawaii w.o. comm. penalty. Comm. is now rc responsibility
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WBChristie
New member
Since I'm signed up my .02c is what Brian said. If trackers are mandated (hopefully not) no check ins by the racer (the tracker takes care of that)
solosailor
New member
I competed in what I recall was the last SHTP (2000) that had a check-in (via SSB or VHF w/relay) with no penalty, nor tracking. In the following races check-ins carried a penalty.
A tracker IS NOT a check-in device, unless the check-in is to see if the YellowBrick or such unit is working. A tracker is an entertainment tool for those ashore, not for the racers. It's a great tool and I'm not against the SHTP competitors carrying them but I'm very much against using them as a check-in tool. No other race uses them this way. All races that have a check-in requirement (which is all) need to do so via SSB or SatPhone.
So the decision needs to be made...... is the check-in a safety tool or not? If it is then a tracker does not meet the requirement. A check-in is just that, a competitor checking-in as a confirmation that all is well onboard and to report their position.
I was very disturbed to hear that the communications requirements were change last minute in the 2012 SHTP to allow the tracker to fulfill the check-in requirement even though it took no human intervention to complete this "check-in". I'm also against using a tracker to check-in for the same reason BobJ stated.
To me getting rid of the tracker eliminates several problems regarding cheating and eliminates the prospect of someone cheating by going online anytime they want and viewing the fleet positions...... this is a major problem in other races. The overall winner of the Pac Cup was penalized right off the podium once they were caught.
Also, do people onshore really need to see where each competitor is every moment during the race? Isn't one or two positions reports per/24 hours enough? I've had numerous people tell me in the years since the trackers came on the market that they waste way to much time looking at the race website and it kind of takes away the excitement of waiting for the next day's position report to see the latest developments.
Greg
A tracker IS NOT a check-in device, unless the check-in is to see if the YellowBrick or such unit is working. A tracker is an entertainment tool for those ashore, not for the racers. It's a great tool and I'm not against the SHTP competitors carrying them but I'm very much against using them as a check-in tool. No other race uses them this way. All races that have a check-in requirement (which is all) need to do so via SSB or SatPhone.
So the decision needs to be made...... is the check-in a safety tool or not? If it is then a tracker does not meet the requirement. A check-in is just that, a competitor checking-in as a confirmation that all is well onboard and to report their position.
I was very disturbed to hear that the communications requirements were change last minute in the 2012 SHTP to allow the tracker to fulfill the check-in requirement even though it took no human intervention to complete this "check-in". I'm also against using a tracker to check-in for the same reason BobJ stated.
So there will be a penalty for the tracker NOT working and checking-in, not the person?? Getting kind of funny now folks. I personally know of several cases of teams intentionally taking their tracker below and burying it under gear or in aluminum foil for a portion or the entire race. I've also known of many tracker failures not due to cheating including once having sheered off the tracker antenna from the stern pulpit due to a flogging sheet after broaching.
To me getting rid of the tracker eliminates several problems regarding cheating and eliminates the prospect of someone cheating by going online anytime they want and viewing the fleet positions...... this is a major problem in other races. The overall winner of the Pac Cup was penalized right off the podium once they were caught.
Also, do people onshore really need to see where each competitor is every moment during the race? Isn't one or two positions reports per/24 hours enough? I've had numerous people tell me in the years since the trackers came on the market that they waste way to much time looking at the race website and it kind of takes away the excitement of waiting for the next day's position report to see the latest developments.
Greg
FWIW, in our PSSA races, boats miss check-ins a few times a year. Sometimes it's because of safety that the DON'T check-in as they are dealing with boat handling matters in strong winds during the few minutes of our check-ins. Sometimes the skipper is resting/over sleeping. More often he's having radio or power issues. Since my involvement, no one who missed a check-in did so because they required assistance.
But what if someone misses multiple check-ins? This too has happened. It's always been because of onboard power or radio issues. Theoretically it could be because the skipper went overboard or is incapacitated to such as extent they can't reach their EPIRB. PSSA covers the former eventuality by mandating a PLB, and recommending that it be worn while on deck. The latter, while possible seems terribly remote. I'm reminded of a competitor in the '79 Bermuda 1-2 who was incapacitated for 3 days while he passed a stone. Then sailed into St. Georges a new man.
Stones aside, I don't see how check-ins can be about safety. Collecting and disseminating position data could be a reason, or for simple camaraderie. I assume the RC will be providing the once a day position data to the fleet. Tracking data has often been more accurate than skipper transmitted data. For camaraderie it's probably better to set up a daily non-mandatory SSB chat hour, sometime around beer o'clock.
But what if someone misses multiple check-ins? This too has happened. It's always been because of onboard power or radio issues. Theoretically it could be because the skipper went overboard or is incapacitated to such as extent they can't reach their EPIRB. PSSA covers the former eventuality by mandating a PLB, and recommending that it be worn while on deck. The latter, while possible seems terribly remote. I'm reminded of a competitor in the '79 Bermuda 1-2 who was incapacitated for 3 days while he passed a stone. Then sailed into St. Georges a new man.
Stones aside, I don't see how check-ins can be about safety. Collecting and disseminating position data could be a reason, or for simple camaraderie. I assume the RC will be providing the once a day position data to the fleet. Tracking data has often been more accurate than skipper transmitted data. For camaraderie it's probably better to set up a daily non-mandatory SSB chat hour, sometime around beer o'clock.
For what it's worth, I have had a DL InReach velcroed to a bulkhead inside my cabin and it has been sending automatic position reports for the last 4 months every 4 hours when the boat isn't underway, and every 10 minutes when my SOG is over 2 knots. It hasn't yet missed a single position report from inside the cabin. It is kept charged through a 5 volt switching regulator that draws 0.1 amp from the boat's 12 volt supply. You can buy chargers that are a little less efficient for $10 at Radio Shack.
I plan on entering the race. I'm just waiting for the inspection results on my 53 year old Ariel, and overcoming my own reticence to drill 40 holes in my balsa cored deck - over which I will cry many tears - to install clothesline (lifeline) stanchions. I'm still looking for stanchion bases that I can attach to the hull instead that won't act like little sea anchors when she's heeled with her rail in the water (a normal underway attitude for my boat).
I always carry a PLB in a fannypack when I'm out. It never gets in the way and it seems like a good precaution. I have a strip of "supervelcro" on the top of my helmet to which I'd slap the PLB (if I'm bobbing in the water I won't be too fashion conscious) - I learned that trick from the Coasties. Besides the obvious need if you go overboard - you may not find the EPIRB among all the flotsam if you abandon after it gets kicked out of its holder. I suppose most of us wouldn't step into the liferaft until the last inch of the rail sinks below the surface. By then, the EPIRB may have drifted away. And having an active PLB in addition to an active EPIRB does say rather emphatically: "Yes, I really mean it. I'm in trouble here."
I don't want to debate over whether PLBs should be required. IMHO, it's a matter of personal choice and personal risk assessment (as should be lifelines).
However, I think the requirement to check in might prevent an unnecessary SAR mission if you're out there drifting around looking like your vessel is NUC ("not under command"). With the DL, I can send a text message saying: "I'm becalmed/beset by weather and hove to with a sea anchor" or whatever. The YB won't let me say that "I'm OK - my radio is dead but don't worry about me." If the Coasties show up way out at sea, they may order you off your boat so they don't have to come out again. You can read an account of that happening from the story of S/V Satori (the actual rescue depicted in The Perfect Storm). Being able to say: "I'm OK," may save you from being forcibly evicted from your vessel (and the taxpayers a load of cash).
The SPOT trackers will quit working about half way to Hawaii. Hawaii is outside their satellite footprint. SPOT is delusionally optimistic showing degraded service all the way to Hawaii.
I've looked at the YB depiction of the 2012 Transpac, and it's very nicely done. I personally have no problem with carrying both the DL and the YB just to get the nice record of the voyage.
I plan on entering the race. I'm just waiting for the inspection results on my 53 year old Ariel, and overcoming my own reticence to drill 40 holes in my balsa cored deck - over which I will cry many tears - to install clothesline (lifeline) stanchions. I'm still looking for stanchion bases that I can attach to the hull instead that won't act like little sea anchors when she's heeled with her rail in the water (a normal underway attitude for my boat).
I always carry a PLB in a fannypack when I'm out. It never gets in the way and it seems like a good precaution. I have a strip of "supervelcro" on the top of my helmet to which I'd slap the PLB (if I'm bobbing in the water I won't be too fashion conscious) - I learned that trick from the Coasties. Besides the obvious need if you go overboard - you may not find the EPIRB among all the flotsam if you abandon after it gets kicked out of its holder. I suppose most of us wouldn't step into the liferaft until the last inch of the rail sinks below the surface. By then, the EPIRB may have drifted away. And having an active PLB in addition to an active EPIRB does say rather emphatically: "Yes, I really mean it. I'm in trouble here."
I don't want to debate over whether PLBs should be required. IMHO, it's a matter of personal choice and personal risk assessment (as should be lifelines).
However, I think the requirement to check in might prevent an unnecessary SAR mission if you're out there drifting around looking like your vessel is NUC ("not under command"). With the DL, I can send a text message saying: "I'm becalmed/beset by weather and hove to with a sea anchor" or whatever. The YB won't let me say that "I'm OK - my radio is dead but don't worry about me." If the Coasties show up way out at sea, they may order you off your boat so they don't have to come out again. You can read an account of that happening from the story of S/V Satori (the actual rescue depicted in The Perfect Storm). Being able to say: "I'm OK," may save you from being forcibly evicted from your vessel (and the taxpayers a load of cash).
The SPOT trackers will quit working about half way to Hawaii. Hawaii is outside their satellite footprint. SPOT is delusionally optimistic showing degraded service all the way to Hawaii.
I've looked at the YB depiction of the 2012 Transpac, and it's very nicely done. I personally have no problem with carrying both the DL and the YB just to get the nice record of the voyage.
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WBChristie
New member
Boy I'm glad I'm not RC, it must be tough job trying to anticipate and make the best decisions for safety and practicability and keep everyone happy! 
An addendum to my post above ... if trackers are mandated and used as check ins, in the event of a tracker going quiet perhaps there could be a protocol on contacting the boat whose tracker has gone silent ie, boat has ssb or has satphone or has DL or has SPOT...or a combination of those - call, text before rescue ..or something along those lines.
There really is no silver bullet. Whatever RC decides is fine with me.
SPOT does work out to Hawaii...I have followed boats in previous races that have carried SPOT to and from Hawaii.
An addendum to my post above ... if trackers are mandated and used as check ins, in the event of a tracker going quiet perhaps there could be a protocol on contacting the boat whose tracker has gone silent ie, boat has ssb or has satphone or has DL or has SPOT...or a combination of those - call, text before rescue ..or something along those lines.
There really is no silver bullet. Whatever RC decides is fine with me.
SPOT does work out to Hawaii...I have followed boats in previous races that have carried SPOT to and from Hawaii.
Spot trackers use the Globalstar sat. constellation. Unlike its name, Globalstar coverage isn't global and is limited by the the location of downlink stations. While the Spot trackers may work in and near Hawaii, that area is outside the Globalstar service footprint: http://www.globalstar.com/en/index.php?cid=106&sidenav=232. Globalstar doesn't even claim "fringe" service in the area. Spot claims: "reduced or no coverage" in and near Hawaii. Here is their coverage map (identical to Globalstar's - just more optimistic) http://www.findmespot.ca/en/index.php?cid=109.
For some reason Spot believes the Globalstar satellites have a larger coverage area than Globalstar itself claims. Probably an edict from the Marketing department.
I wouldn't depend on Spot anywhere near Hawaii.
I would be interested to hear from Rob Tryon concerning Dirk's (?) rescue in the last SHTP. As a participant I was aware that his SSB check-ins had stopped but not why. He failed to contact the CG on 2182 so set off his EPIRB. So far the YB played no role except to let people know the boat was still afloat but I don't know what the RC knew at this point. There can be no doubt that the YB was responsible for saving his boat and this raises the question of ones responsibility when abandoning your vessel. Many people feel strongly that you should sink the vessel when you abandon it so that it does not become a hazard to navigation. Would this responsibility be lessened if the position of the vessel could be broadcast? Would Dirk's situation and rescue have been different if he hadn't been in last position at the time of his rescue?
Personally I was opposed to the YB in 2012 for financial reasons but it brought so much pleasure to those people who had helped me participate that I'm very much in favor of a tracking system now. And it did save Dirks' boat.
Personally I was opposed to the YB in 2012 for financial reasons but it brought so much pleasure to those people who had helped me participate that I'm very much in favor of a tracking system now. And it did save Dirks' boat.
brianb
Olson 34 Driver
Boy I'm glad I'm not RC, it must be tough job trying to anticipate and make the best decisions for safety and practicability and keep everyone happy!
An addendum to my post above ... if trackers are mandated and used as check ins, in the event of a tracker going quiet perhaps there could be a protocol on contacting the boat whose tracker has gone silent ie, boat has ssb or has satphone or has DL or has SPOT...or a combination of those - call, text before rescue ..or something along those lines.
There really is no silver bullet. Whatever RC decides is fine with me.
SPOT does work out to Hawaii...I have followed boats in previous races that have carried SPOT to and from Hawaii.
I for one agree with your points and am proposing what I have outlined below. The committee will be discussing this further.
1. Tracker serves as check in and is mandatory. Yellow Brick is the current tracker of choice. Other means can also be used but are not mandatory. RC will confirm tracker operation prior to race start on each vessel.
2. A SSB and VHF check in period will be part of the event, two per day as in the past. During that period positions will be read to the fleet from the Comm vessel. Anyone could also contribute their position at this time. This would also serve as a period for general discussion.
3. Any vessel not showing up on the tracker will be flagged for hailing during this check in period. SSB and VHF will be used. The RC will attempt contact by email/sat phone if they are available on the vessel.
4. No penalty will be applied for not checking in because the RC's mandate of carrying a tracker will shift that responsibility to the RC. Racers should make a good faith effort to confirm their YB is working by monitoring the twice daily check in, checking email, sat phone, or text via sat phone, if available.
5. VHF, AIS (receive only), EPRIB, and Tracker are the required communication vehicles.
Note: YB can be used to flag an emergency as stated here. This provides two vehicles to flag a problem, one to the RC and others, and one to USCG via EPIRB:
"Each Yellowbrick has a little red button under a security cover. If during the hire the red button is held down for 5 seconds then the Yellowbrick will send a position report with a special flag, and our systems automatically send an alert message via SMS and email to those people you specified."
Have fun out there.
Brian
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