• Ahoy and Welcome to the New SSS Forums!!

    As you can see, we have migrated our old forums to new software. All your old posts, threads, attachments, and messages should be here. If you see anything out of place or have any questions, please scroll to the very bottom of the page and click "Contact Us" and leave a note with as much detail as possible.

    You should be able to login with your old credentials. If you have any issues, try resetting your password before clicking the Contact Us link.

    Cheers
    - Bryan

sss hmb and ncorc rules

J

Jonathan Gutoff

New member
I see the NCORC recommendations have been posted and the SSS is going to use them for the HMB Race. I feel that a lot of the requirements will cause less boats to race. In the past the SSS HMB race has been a good starter race for those looking to get into ocean racing. I think the regulations also will keep out a lot of the one design boats like Moore 24's and Express 27's.
My main gripes are: Complicated lifelines for small boats when jacklines could be used. Toe rails 3/4 inches. Masthead antennae. SOLAS flares, PFD with 33 lbs buoyancy and crotch straps (Inflatables are the only ones to meet this without going to a very bulky type 1), An EPIRB plus DSC VHF and the SAS seminar. This race is a mid summer 21 mile with usually a less than 10 miles offshore reach. (We have found the hardest part was the beat out the gate) I appreciate what the NCORC council has done and can understand the requirements for other races such as the Farallones, Lightship and other spring races but not the SSS HMB. Please discuss.
 
Jonathan, look at the last couple of HMB entry lists. I did and the only boats that had issues were Jackie's Cal 20 (sold) and Matt's Wilderness 21 (just bought lifelines). I hear what you're saying though - maybe we'll keep away entries we would have had, or more likely SSS's previous ocean rules kept them out.

Since the NCORC MOR (fka MEL, then MER) are recommendations to race organizers, there is certainly room for discussion. For now I'd lean towards trying to work within them, perhaps with individual waivers as requested.

Sorry to be so chatty today - I'm home with a flu-like thing.
 
You have 24 days to get well before the Fiasco. That Flu thing has been going around. Does anybody know the weather history of the race? I may be biased but every one I've done has either been a drifter or a really nice white sail reach in 10-15 knots. (Then setting the chute for the last mile.) I talked to 2 people who didn't do the race last year because of the cost of SOLAS flares and PLB EPRIB for the one doublehanded ocean race of the season.
 
Jonathan, this is why it is so great to belong to the SSS: there are people from whom you can borrow stuff for races. I only sold my Cal 20 because I wanted to buy a bigger, fatter boat. Which I did. Otherwise I'd still be complaining about that lifeline requirement. And everything else, too, in part just to see what Bob has to say. The 2 past years I sailed to HMB I borrowed flares (a gun, which seemed very naughty and NRA), a legal PFD (I left that in the cabin and wore my dinghy lifevest which I know floats) and jacklines. Oh, and I borrowed a MOB, a spotlight and a horseshoe. Also battery operated nav lights just in case mine didn't work. I bought jacklines, which are too short for my boat now. You can borrow those.
 
Thanks Jackie, I already have the stuff and we did the race last year. I'm more concerned about new young racers and the old farts on Moores and such. (And Cal 20's.) Most of the list is fine because it's mainly the CG regs anyway.(and common sense) But can we require a handheld VHF with DSC/GPS or PLB but not both? They cost about $250 each. I would prefer the VHF as they should work for the short offshore distance during the race. (I'm assuming a 5 watt handheld will reach the CG all the way down to HMB so is a masthead 25 watt needed?) Do the boats need to talk to the RC? The RC is on the move to the finish so boats can't talk to them until the RC arrives at the HMBYC anyway. Jacklines are easy and simple to hook up to small boats and Lifelines are not. Are jacklines only that much more unsafe in the usual conditions of the race? SOLAS flares are great (and scary) but are they really needed when you are so close to the other boats while racing? Or are the 12g ones fine?
 
Jonathan wrote: "In the past the SSS HMB race has been a good starter race for those looking to get into ocean racing."

If that's true (and I believe it is) then we want new skippers to start bringing their boats up to offshore spec's, right? So they try HMB, borrow some gear to see what it looks like and maybe get familiar with it, and then move on to equip their boats to do OYRA/SHS, SH Farallones, etc. That's a big part of what SSS is about (read our home page) - not just to run races.
 
BobJ said:
Jonathan wrote: "In the past the SSS HMB race has been a good starter race for those looking to get into ocean racing."

If that's true (and I believe it is) then we want new skippers to start bringing their boats up to offshore spec's, right? So they try HMB, borrow some gear to see what it looks like and maybe get familiar with it, and then move on to equip their boats to do OYRA/SHS, SH Farallones, etc. That's a big part of what SSS is about (read our home page) - not just to run races.
Click to expand...

But maybe get their feet wet so to speak before making the big investment? The NCORC regs will be the same for the SSS Farallones and HMB. Are these races that similar? I just see a need for compromise. For now I'll keep quiet and see what others think...
 
I totally agree with Jonathan. It's a new SSS Board and many of the clubs and skippers that also participipte in SSS races also belong to other sailing organizations. In fact, a good percentage of our skippers also participate in other race series. As a past board memeber, I know I made a few mistakes during my first year "calling the shots". The issue, for me, making those decisions came down to to choosing the greater good over what only applied to the particulars that were best suited the SSS. While we are a significant and valuable part of the Bay Area we depend on other clubs for support of all of our activities. Most changes happen early in the season and The TBF is the first big race of those seasons. If anyone is particularly upset, sure, voice your concerns or better yet sign up to help on a race deck and experience the joy of running the TBF. By the way. both BobJ and Jonathan have taken more than their collective share of time in the Barrel.

Bill Merrick
 
Here, here, Bill,

Yep, get in the trenches with me for the 3BF and see how it all works. I agree with Bill whole-heartedly and have always believed I find value in something I have had to spend money for. Freebies are just that, freebies and most of the time they end up, somehow, not being freebies. Of course, borrowing is another discussion. Thanks, Jackie, that's a good point. If someone invests time and money n their equipment on a boat, and hence their life, doesn't s/he value it more? Won't he/she take better care of it? Just asking and love SSS. See you the 23rd! And, of course, I am looking for volunteers the 26th.
 
must admit i'm scratching my head a bit after reading some of these new requirements.... that's my polite, discreet way of saying that some of these new regs are utter BS

let me get to "adding" more gear to my boat that just raced around the farallones, to hawaii, several times inter-island.... just so i can race to the farallones again. retarted.

sorry, i didn't add any tact to my coffee this morning.
 
Last edited:
You should have seen where they started out Ronnie - nearly the full ISAF Cat. 2 requirements. After no small amount of lobbying, NCORC ended up taking SSS's list for ocean races and adding a couple things. Trust me, it was going to be a much longer list.

Specifically, what items do you need that you didn't already have for the Hawaii race?
 
My masthead antenna is less than 15 inches tall (Shakespeare Racing one). Besides, my stern-pulpit mounted antenna works awesome. And it provides redundancy for losing a rig. When I did DH Farallones and OYRA light bucket last year, this was all I had and was legal. Now it's not. Just left scratching my head a bit as to why.

I un-installed my instrument package to pay for shipping home, but now i'll need t re-add a thru-hull, depth sounder, wiring, display. Really left scratching my head on not allowing lead lines like in the past.

My VHF radio is not DSC capable, so i'll need a new VHF radio. And what is an MMSI number? Don't we already have required PLB's? This is redundant, no? Not a bad thing, but what is this addressing that a PLB doesn't?

Having bought all the SOLAS flares just before SHTP, i know that is an investment. For boats that don't have those, is a normal USCG-approved set from West Marine for $40 not really adequate in the Gulf of the Farallones?
 
For some reason YRA still has the old Minimum Equipment List on their website. Here's the new one we're talking about:

http://www.norcalorc.org/node/32

Ronnie, check that antenna. I recently helped install one and if it's the Shakespeare coiled/spiral one, its 15" long.

You can't use a lead line while racing around the Farallones. They're fine for anchoring in shallow water but not much else. That option was always a bit of a joke.

You don't have to have a DSC-capable radio until next year but if you understand DSC and the new Rescue-21 system, you'd understand why YRA is moving in that direction. BTW, I'm selling my ICOM 402 w/DSC (25W) if you or anyone else wants to get one cheap. Even has the RAM mic. I never entered my MMSI so it's good to go.

There was a trade-off on the flares. Fewer flares are required but they have to be good ones. If you've ever seen SOLAS flares and non-SOLAS flares fired off side-by-side (I have), you wouldn't bother with non-SOLAS flares.
 
Hi Ronnie ...

Sorry if you missed the discussions on Pressure Drop and Sailing Anarchy. As you might expect, they sometimes got ... vivid ... and they had some influence on the final product.

Are you sure about your antenna length? That 15" minimum was written specifically to allow a common Shakespeare racing antenna. 5216 is the model number I see.

Nobody wants to add a thruhull, but I hear most depthsounders can be made to work without one, if you experiment with location inside the hull. Have you ever used a leadline? While racing? I'm skeptical that anyone without a lot of experience tossing it could get a reliable reading while moving. And we want something that racers will actually use.

DSC was put off for a year so that we're not hit with all the new expenses at once. With DSC, the SOS gets out immediately, as opposed to waiting til a satellite passes over. And your friends on nearby boats get the message, not just the Coast Guard. MMSI is a registration number that you program into the unit. Easy and free.

Max
 
Matt Beal and Tony Bourque both assure me that my new Humminbird depth finder/fish finder will work fine. It promises depth to 600 feet. Cost $113 @ Defender and the sensor gets fiberglassed to the inside of my hull. I'll let you know.
 
I'm still wondering why the NCORC list for the SSS HMB Race. The Farallones Race, OK. Two DSC radios plus EPIRB? Thats $750.(Not counting a masthead install) SOLAS flares for a short race with other boats around you? We don't have to follow the list and NCORC have even said that themselves. Why can't the different races be taken individually? The HMB is part of a race series that should be accessible to more boats with the one throwout for boats not set up for the Farallones. Should we have 2 throw-outs for the boats that can't afford to comply for the HMB?
 
SSS's HMB race isn't until mid-August and boats will need to get ready for the SH Farallones first. Some will also be gearing up (literally) for OYRA, where I'm told waivers will be few and far between. After the 3BF I'm sure the board will be looking at this.

And again, DSC radios aren't until next year.
 
I guess I'm not really getting the answer I'm looking for so my question must be wrong. Does the board believe the HMB is in the same category of ocean race (in terms of risk factor) as the Farallones? What if the only ocean race you plan to do is the HMB? I'd rank the races progressively. HMB basic CG requirements, Farallones NCORC, Longpac and Transpac as is. (or what the Race Chairs deem appropriate)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top