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sss hmb and ncorc rules

Now I"m a bit more confused. My radio, though not DSC/VHF/GPS, but only DSC/VHF, is transmitted via the masthead antenna. Do you suggest that a fixed mount radio with a mast head antenna, as mine is, is more useful than an epirb or plb in an emergency? If the fixed mount radio does not reach 200 nm, then how does the GPS addition to the equation make it additionally safe? In other words, why the additional requirement? Here is where I ask: "what would Pat Broderick say?" He's probably sailing Nancy in the Corinthian midwins or somewhere cold and damp today.

Can someone clarify this, please? For those of us with DSC/VHF fixed mount radios in our boats, can we connect our handheld garmin gps units to them and meet this requirement? According to this site http://www.usps.org/localusps/redwood/education/NMEA/dsc.htm , it can be done in this way, thus meeting this requirement.
 
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Jackie & Co. There are two types of radios used by us sailors: VHF and HF (SSB). A VHF radio signal is 2 meter frequency, and is "line of sight" for all intents and purposes and is limited by the FCC to 25 watts. A HF radio (SSB) is legal to 150 watts. The HF signal bounces off layers of the atmosphere back down to earth; different HF frequencies bounce off different layers and therefore "transmit" further or shorter distances. Whether it daytime or nighttime also figures in, since various layers of the atmosphere change during the daywhen. It has to do with direct sunshine on the earth's atmophere. It's possible for a HF signal to transmit thousands of miles. NO VHF radio can transmit anything like 200 miles unless atmospheric conditions are very special, something called "ducting" which is so unusual it should not be part of this conversation.
Since we use "line of sight" VHF, the height of both transmitting and receiving antennas is important for distance. The CG has antennas on Mt. Tam and other high peaks, so they can transmit and hear over much greater distances than we can when transmitting boat to boat. The practical range of a 25 watt VHF radio is between 3 and 20+/- miles.. Two handhelds in cockpits have a much shorter range (5 miles???) than two masthead antennas, which can be 20 miles or more, depending on how high each mast is. The quality of the masthead signal also depends on the quality of the cable and connections which carry the transmission from the radio to the antenna. There is always loss of power, but bad cable and/or connections can really degrade the transmission. The marine atmosphere is a radio signal's worst enemy and bad connections result in bad transmissions.
Since the CG antennas are located much higher up, we can often hear CG Station Monterey, which has a high antenna on some mountain down there. By the way, the CG is also limited to 25 watts of broadcast power on the VHF bands. If you're in the water with a handheld VHF radio within sight of the top of Mt. Tam the CG should be able to hear you, but there are several "IFs." 1) IF your battery is charged up; VHF handhelds transmit at a max of 5 or 6 watts and that power diminishes sharply as the battery runs down. 2) IF the radio is waterproof and you've closed the battery compartment correcty. 3) IF you are holding it so the antenna is upright and out of the water.
Help? Pat
 
Philpott said:
Can someone clarify this, please? For those of us with DSC/VHF fixed mount radios in our boats, can we connect our handheld garmin gps units to them and meet this requirement?
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Yes. My fancy-schmancy new Std-Horizon "Matrix AIS+ GX2150" doesn't have GPS in it, but I ran one of the data-out wires from my Garmin GPS to it and it's slickerin' cat slobber.
 
I guess one advantage DSC has over PLB/EPIRB is that anyone in range with a DSC radio will hear the distress signal, not just CG. Not sure how useful that would be for SHTP, but for shorter races might be significant.
 
For the PacCup I bought a Standard-Horizon AIS radio and also hooked it up to my Garmin GPS. Worked like a charm, although we only heard 2 ships and saw only 1 of them. It was comforting, even though someone was always in the cockpit steering. Of course we thankfully didn't need to see if the DSC worked! But knowing it was there and we were being shadowed by another boat often 15 - 20 nm away was comforting.
I think the NCORC's VHF/DSC/GPS requirement is for local ocean coastal races, not those going to Hawaii. My guess is that anyone planning on Hawaii will be sailing lots of local ocean coastal races in prep for the big one. Except for the SSS LongPac, all of these races should be within CG range.
 
Pat,

As others have already mentioned you should be able to connect a hand held gps to your fixed mount dsc capable vhf and meet the requirements for the house radio. For the hand held vhf you are likely in the same situation as I am: need to spend $$ before January next year (provided the SSS adheres to the NCORC recs). What model of fixed mount vhf is on your boat?

My comment about the benefits of the gps enabled dsc radio call are more related to the rapid transmission of location. It can take a bit of time for an epirb or plb to get that information back to SAR, especially for the older, non-gps enabled beacons. (I believe the numbers are something on the order of as much as an hour or more for non-gps epirb's which rely on doppler shift measurements to determine a location. The gps enabled beacons should be able to send a location in minutes and perhaps on first transmit with those beacons that connect to an external gps to have a location pre-loaded.) The other advantages I can see in the vhf dsc call are that it goes to every dsc enabled radio in range (this has already been mentioned) and you are likely to be in communication with CG very quickly. We all know that the hand held vhf more than likely saved two lives when Heat Wave lost her keel. If the radio they had retrieved from the boat and used to call the CG had been dsc and gps enabled, their location would have been sent along with the distress call, which would have been a great aid to the SAR efforts. As it was the CG's ability to tell the Heat Wave crew to look for the pilot boat and the ability of Heat Wave to guide the pilot boat to their location. I tend to think of radios and beacons as complimentary devices and if I were to find myself in a situation like Heat Wave I am sure I would activate the beacon and get on the radio, look for my voo-doo doll and whatever else was at hand to help. So much for my 2 cents on the matter.
 
Not to beat a dead horse, but this is the recommendation: "11. Waterproof handheld VHF radio. After 1/1/2014, this radio shall have DSC/GPS capability" All previous discussion has focused on having gps capability in the boat's fixed radio, not the handheld radio. With the understanding that these are RECOMMENDATIONS, not requirements, and that the SSS board has not yet met to discuss which of them to REQUIRE for our own races, if a fixed mount radio has DSC/VHF/GPS cabability, would a handheld with the same characteristics not be redundant (don't mean to throw you under the bus, Jonathan, one thing at a time)? I see that more than a thousand people have read these posts, so I'll bet I'm not the only enquiring mind who wants to know.
 
Philpott said:
Not to beat a dead horse, but this is the recommendation: "11. Waterproof handheld VHF radio. After 1/1/2014, this radio shall have DSC/GPS capability" All previous discussion has focused on having gps capability in the boat's fixed radio, not the handheld radio. With the understanding that these are RECOMMENDATIONS, not requirements, and that the SSS board has not yet met to discuss which of them to REQUIRE for our own races, if a fixed mount radio has DSC/VHF/GPS cabability, would a handheld with the same characteristics not be redundant (don't mean to throw you under the bus, Jonathan, one thing at a time)? I see that more than a thousand people have read these posts, so I'll bet I'm not the only enquiring mind who wants to know.
Click to expand...

I'm just saying that 2 DSC VHF radios and a PLB sounds redundant for the HMB race. I'd prefer a GPS/DSC handheld over the others. I've been getting conflicting answers to the question if a GPS/DSC VHF gets a faster response time than a PLB/GPS. If the CG says a PLB is better then that should be the choice.
 
JohnS said:
Pat,

As others have already mentioned you should be able to connect a hand held gps to your fixed mount dsc capable vhf and meet the requirements for the house radio. For the hand held vhf you are likely in the same situation as I am: need to spend $$ before January next year (provided the SSS adheres to the NCORC recs). What model of fixed mount vhf is on your boat?

My comment about the benefits of the gps enabled dsc radio call are more related to the rapid transmission of location. It can take a bit of time for an epirb or plb to get that information back to SAR, especially for the older, non-gps enabled beacons. (I believe the numbers are something on the order of as much as an hour or more for non-gps epirb's which rely on doppler shift measurements to determine a location. The gps enabled beacons should be able to send a location in minutes and perhaps on first transmit with those beacons that connect to an external gps to have a location pre-loaded.) The other advantages I can see in the vhf dsc call are that it goes to every dsc enabled radio in range (this has already been mentioned) and you are likely to be in communication with CG very quickly. We all know that the hand held vhf more than likely saved two lives when Heat Wave lost her keel. If the radio they had retrieved from the boat and used to call the CG had been dsc and gps enabled, their location would have been sent along with the distress call, which would have been a great aid to the SAR efforts. As it was the CG's ability to tell the Heat Wave crew to look for the pilot boat and the ability of Heat Wave to guide the pilot boat to their location. I tend to think of radios and beacons as complimentary devices and if I were to find myself in a situation like Heat Wave I am sure I would activate the beacon and get on the radio, look for my voo-doo doll and whatever else was at hand to help. So much for my 2 cents on the matter.
Click to expand...

John, My SH is a GX2100 and was "new" in 2010 when I purchased it for the LongPac. It cost about $400. It's old technology now, and I'm not even sure the model # is still offered. As I've written, I have my Gamin 478 (also ancient technology) hooked up to it. I can't take it with me when I exit the boat! And it probably wouldn't work upside down in the water if my keel fell of and by some miracle the hull stayed afloat with me hanging onto the rudder, ala Heat Wave style.
Here's an online source: <standardhorizon.factoryoutletstore.com> that seems to have good prices on marine radios, but you can also check with <defender.com>. I know the Factory Outlet Store has downloads of the owners manuals so you can read the details. I think they also sell the other brands, so you might be able to do some feature/cost comparisons.
My understanding about CG Permits for 2013 is that an EPIRB/PLB is the communication requirement of choice. As I've repeated over and over (tired of hearing?) I sail out there with my PLB attached to my Spinlock PFD and my WM HT (HAM lingo!) on a strap around my neck. I want my HT attached to me so it won't be swept out of my hand as it was on Heat Wave. I'm seriously thinking of asking for an ICOM M92D DSC/Handheld VHF Radio (WM $300) for my birthday on March 28 (hint, hint!) so I can register it and take it with me on the BAMA Farallones on March 30. See you in 2 weeks at the Awards.
 
I'm not on the NorCalORC safety/equipment committee but I recall Andy posting that they are waiting on the CG to respond about this issue. Specifically, if boats have DSC-enabled radios will the CG back off of its requirement for a 406 device (EPIRB or PLB)?

I'm liking the DSC handheld for a MOB situation (vs. a PLB). The MOB can push the emergency call button and all the boats around (and the CG via Rescue21) will get that call. If the handheld is also GPS-enabled, the DSC call will include the MOB's position. If a nearby boat's VHF is wired to its chartplotter the MOB's position will show on that, and this is all instantaneous vs. waiting for the ERIRB or PLB signal (which may not initially include a position) to work its way back to the CG and then out to the fleet via voice transmission.

I was thinking about this today in fact, as I was jumping around on the boat with no tether up in SP Bay. I'm getting a DSC/GPS enabled handheld regardless of what the rules require. My old handheld is 12 years old anyway, and still on its original rechargable bettery.

Max, has anyone said if they've heard from the CG yet?
 
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Handheld VHF with DSC/GPS

NCORC MOR Item #11 (Safety Gear): Waterproof handheld VHF radio. After 1/1/2014, this radio shall have DSC/GPS capability.

Jackie,

The situation being address is that you are in the water, separated from your boat, or your keel has come off, or you've lost your mast and ability to transmit. The recommendation and potential requirement is clearly based on lessons learned from a number of Gulf of the Farallones incidents involving: LOW SPEED CHASE, DAISY, HEAT WAVE and others. All of these incidents involved people in the water. Obviously, this is only applicable to near shore racing with other boats around. If you fall overboard on the SHTP it very unlikely anyone can find you in time.

The clear advantage of a handheld DSC/GPS VHF, if you have it on your person, is:
1. The capability to very quickly alert all other DSC equipped vessels AND the CG to your situation and position.
2. Two-way communication with potential rescuers.

The alternative of a PLB does not alert other vessels; it may not get a response from the CG for as much as a hour or longer while they wait for a fix and verify that it's not a false alarm; AND it's one-way communication. I have been on the bridge of a large vessel when a DSC/VHF emergency was activated. It was quite impressive: alarms go off and the signal position was immediately shown on the vessels chart plotter.

Jackie, I'm not sure from your earlier post that you know that your fixed mount DSC/VHF must either have an internal GPS or be interfaced with a GPS to be DSC functional. There are statistics that some vast majority of DSC/VHF radios are not properly installed.

Tom
 
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Tom, you said it more clearly than I did - thanks.

My old Icom 402 (fixed mount VHF) had DSC capability and I even had an MMSI, but I never put it in the radio. Also, I never wired the GPS to it. It sounds like I was in good company.
 
BobJ said:
Max, has anyone said if they've heard from the CG yet?
Click to expand...
Not that I'm aware of.

To clarify a point that someone brought up a few posts back, the NCORC recommendations are not intended to apply to any races farther than the Farallones or Monterey. That leaves out Coastal Cup, LongPac and the Hawaii races.
 
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